Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Cabernet and pray, the podcast where we explore Christianity through the beauty of wine. And today I get to make a new friend. Today's episode is with Kevin Sweeney. This is someone who I have seen online for a while now. I followed from afar, partly because he lives in Hawaii, and that obviously creates a certain level of distance there, but hadn't had a chance to get to know him. And as you'll see in this episode, we quickly became friends, and this was one of those kindred spirits. And even after the episode, we found ourselves just chatting for a while, just talking to each other and reminiscing on so many shared experiences and things that we've been through together. So hopefully you pick up on all of that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:46]:
A little intro into Kevin. He was the co founder and lead pastor of Imagine Church for almost ten years, and he talks about that story on this episode. He's the host of the podcast the church needs therapy. Just so great. And he's a best selling author of two books, with his third on the way. That books are the making of a mystic and the joy of letting go. Kevin currently lives and surfs in Honolulu with his wife and co founder of Imagine Christine, their two kids, true and Michaela.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:00]:
At 03:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct communication than I normally would be. All right, well, welcome to the podcast, Kevin. Great to have you today.
Kevin Sweeney [00:03:13]:
Yeah, man, I appreciate it. It's good. It's good to meet, you know, good to see each other from different places in the world and to have this moment, you know, the moment, no matter what happens after, the moment's enough, you know? And hopefully, I didn't mean to start off so much like this right away, but as you transition into the second half of our life, I'm like, the moment is the thing, you know, that's the big journey, is trusting in the ability to enjoy and trust in the ability to enjoy this or wherever, whatever this is in the moment. So, yeah, I'm grateful to be here.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:45]:
Well, let's find out what this is. Let's begin by talking about what we're drinking. I'll start us off. Kevin's gonna throw a curveball. Some of our guests throw us curveballs. So Kevin's got one plan for us. I'm going to drink wine today. We're also in different time zones, so I'm in afternoon, Kevin's in the morning.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:06]:
But today I'm drinking a beautiful cabernet Sauvignon. This is called hall. It's from Napa Valley. It's a 2019. I've had this one before, years ago, until I saw it at total wine the other day, and I was like, I want to see how that is. And it's still good. They're still cranking out good things. What I get on this one is BlackBerry black, cherry leather, graphite, and then some black pepper.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:33]:
So this one, pretty traditional cabs got a lot of those kind of darker notes to it. It is a little bit heavier, but I'm drinking it without food. I've already had lunch, so I'm just enjoying this wine. Kevin, what are you drinking today? You're going to a lighter approach.
Kevin Sweeney [00:04:49]:
I am. See, just for people to listen. I'm a crack it open right now. So it's a June shine, which is a hard kombucha, which is started by guys from San Diego and Hawaii. So there's a connection to out here, too. I remember being at one of their early, early launch parties, but probably when they had their first few accounts out here at a hotel. So, yeah, it's 10:00 a.m. It's Friday.
Kevin Sweeney [00:05:13]:
This is our first, like, bigger south swell of the season. So I live in Honolulu, the south shore of Oahu. April, probably more may ish, is the time where the waves transition from the north shore, where it's big during the winter and still good in the spring, to where we're at now, where it's good all summer. So it's very. Our 24 hours news cycle is more tides, wind, and waves than it is what's happening in the political news cycle out here for a lot of people. So this is a big day for a lot of people who live in town. So, yeah, some 10:00 a.m. Some light allows me to keep going after this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:47]:
Okay, well, before we can get into anything of substance, we people are going to want to know what's it like living in Hawaii? I mean, you've got a view outside your window. That's ridiculous. You're talking about surfing. I mean, is Hawaii as awesome as us mainlanders think it is?
Kevin Sweeney [00:06:08]:
Yeah. And a lot of. And there's people out here who, even though mainland is the most common term, people out here also say the continent, because it doesn't center like. No, for us, that's not the mainland. This is the mainland.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:21]:
Right?
Kevin Sweeney [00:06:21]:
That's the continent. This is where we are. This is. You know, I've seen a map before that I think someone had painted on their walls where, like, Hawaii is at the center of a flat globe, you know?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:33]:
Yeah.
Kevin Sweeney [00:06:33]:
Yeah. It is that beautiful, and it is that special. And the ancient culture of native Hawaii that's still here and very alive and very visible and felt and present all the different cultures that have migrated here. A lot of that's through, like, the sugar plantations and the history of, like, people coming to work and people being brought here and how to. How it created a really unique local culture. It's warm all year. Some of the best waves in the world. My wife and I both surf.
Kevin Sweeney [00:07:06]:
Our kids are five and seven. They surf, and so it's my favorite place in the world. But also, I don't know if people on the continent know about this, but it's also one of the most unlivable places when it comes to cost of living. It's one of the most expensive places to live in the country, but it doesn't have industries that always match that. So people talk about getting priced out of paradise, you know, a lot of native Hawaiians having to move out for the sake of money and housing and land and everything. So it's beautiful. But there's also another very real. The struggle of day to day life here is different than what people think.
Kevin Sweeney [00:07:44]:
So it's both. It's all those things, and it's my favorite place.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:07:49]:
Well said. I like it. Okay, so let's get into a little bit of your journey for people who want to know more about you. And this is a question I like asking our guests to kind of set the tone, because so much of the spiritual experience is a journey, right? We don't. We don't just wake up one day. We're not born with all perfect doctrine and ways of understanding God. And then we just hold on to it. We grow and we evolve and we change and we learn.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:14]:
And so I would love to hear from you. If you look at, like, the last ten years of your life, how has your faith changed over the last decade?
Kevin Sweeney [00:08:23]:
That's a good question, usually, and pretty much all the time, if I get this question, it's more beginnings, you know, for me, and how my own existential crisis as a teenager and my journey towards an awakening when I was 18 and what happened after. But the last ten years, let's see, I'm 39 years old. Are you. Are you still, like, you're. You're a pastor, right? Still.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:44]:
So I refer to myself as the wine pastor, but I'm not on staff at a church. I speak at church. I do. I do this podcast where we talk to, you know, all sorts of spiritual leaders and wine people, but not.
Kevin Sweeney [00:08:58]:
Not.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:58]:
I was a lead pastor. Not formally anymore.
Kevin Sweeney [00:09:01]:
Okay. Gotcha. I feel like I saw that connection somewhere, you know, on instagram. So, yeah, my. I mean, ten years ago right now, let's see, may, my wife and I had just started a church. You know, we were church planners. Like, we moved back here with a bit, with multiple. For multiple reasons, but a bigger picture to start a church.
Kevin Sweeney [00:09:24]:
So we were still, at this point in 2014, still meeting in our home. You know, we intentionally said we're gonna stay meeting in our home for about a year, and it ended up being closer to a year and a half and with some of our convictions and life around the table and creating a culture and what the home feels like, et cetera. So, man, from ten years until now, I had, when everyone's right now talking about deconstruction and stages of evolution, you know, my first major stage of deconstruction, which, if you look at spiral dynamics or other developmental maps, I always tell people, like, what people call deconstruction, is simply the movement from one stage of faith or one stage of consciousness to another. And if you keep evolving, there will be more, you know? So I have, like, a zoomed out perspective to see that, but I had already gone through that, so I wasn't the pastor who's like, oh, my gosh, I'm five years into my congregation, and I created a culture and a system that I now don't fit in. Do I silence my voice and just, like, white knuckle and stay here for security? Or do I embrace my authentic path but have to leave or try to help it grow with me? Like, that tension a lot of people feel? That wasn't my story. I had already changed so much, and I was studying black and womanist and liberation theology in grad school, and I was already. I started in a very different place. So thankfully, I didn't have that experience.
Kevin Sweeney [00:10:50]:
So I think besides theologically and evolving and growing, I think for me, it was a lot of the personal parts of growing that comes from the challenges and the pain and the struggles of just being a pastor and loving people and being close. Like, I felt a pastoral calling in my early twenties, which I didn't really know what that meant, but I was very much embracing it. And at one point, I thought I was going to stay in the academy. But I look back at my desire to stay in the academy, and I say, I still wanted to express my desire to teach or preach, which I love, but I felt like the academy allowed me to avoid two of my greatest fears in life up until that point, which was disappointing people close to me and failing publicly. I just felt like teaching was like, I can come out teach and then hide again. I can come out teach. But a responsibility for the whole and relational proximity and intimacy and the messiness that comes from incarnational life, I was still scared of that. I was.
Kevin Sweeney [00:11:56]:
There was risks there emotionally that teaching didn't require of me. So I think my growth for ten years was embracing failure and letting myself, because all my fears come true. You do all those things. You fail. Like, the secret is not it doesn't happen, it's that it does happen.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:12:17]:
Right?
Kevin Sweeney [00:12:18]:
And like Patton Oswald, the stand up comedians, like, I just. For all early stand up comedians, I just want them to bomb. Just go out there and just. You're done. Like, you're dead. Because that's your greatest fear. And when it happens, you take a deep breath and, yeah, you feel some type of way, then you're like, but I'm okay. Like, you didn't.
Kevin Sweeney [00:12:36]:
No longer is my fear of the negative going to stop me from giving myself fully here. So I think a lot of my own transformation came from, I am going to disappoint some people when they're close to me, make some mistakes, have to apologize. Relationships are going to end. Not as many people are going to show up to this particular thing we're doing. I have to feel all of that. You know, the great, sort of one of the great fathers of centering prayer, Thomas Keating charts the process of transformation as a series of necessary humiliations to the ego. That's how you grow. I just spent all this time teaching, prepping, blah, blah, blah, to do this thing, and it's, oh, there's four people here.
Kevin Sweeney [00:13:20]:
Cool, right? You know, like, can I still give myself fully, even though that part of my ego that still thinks a crowd somehow validates what I'm doing feels humiliated and kind of feel that all the way through and start to transcend it and live beyond it? So I could talk all kinds of ways about how my understanding and my theologies evolved, which I'm more than willing to do, but for me, it was very personal of embracing all of that and being like, we can still keep going, even though I faced all those things that I was scared of.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:49]:
Now, you're not doing that role that you were in the church anymore, correct?
Kevin Sweeney [00:13:53]:
Right. So we actually, in about two weeks or so, May 29, are coming up on a two year anniversary of my wife and I closing down our church. So we didn't just transition out of the role, we actually closed the entire church down.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:14:08]:
What was the. What was the reason for that?
Kevin Sweeney [00:14:11]:
Yeah, that was COVID. You know, Hawaii was one of the most strict states when it comes to rules and lockdowns and all that stuff. And I think after 18 months of not meeting consistently, you know, we're doing digital and all the stuff everyone's doing, which I say pastorally, was all good and necessary and a part of adapting for the sake of serving people and sustaining the church. But on another level, it sucked, I guess. It's horrible, you know, it's like, what I don't even want to watch on a Sunday, and I'm the one who did it. Like, I'm not like, honestly, at the end, I'm not watching because it wasn't live, you know, like, it was. It was live, but I had recorded it earlier. I'm like, I'll just go watch frozen and just cuddle with my daughter right now because I'm over this, you know? So when we went to reopen after 18 months, my wife and I, after just watching the last dance with Michael Jordan, we're like, this is our last dance.
Kevin Sweeney [00:15:09]:
Like, this is our last chapter here. Because I always sensed I would do it for about ten years. And through COVID, I was approaching the 910 year marker. And we thought it was like, this will be a two year chapter. We'll rebuild it and then we'll see what happens. And probably four to five weeks into reopening, just intuitively pretty close to immediately, I just knew this is the last chapter, but it's not a rebuilding one. This is coming to an end. And, you know, my wife and I were in this extended three month conversation of like, wow, like, are we really going to close this? You know, because we're probably 37 at the time.
Kevin Sweeney [00:15:48]:
Like, my wife has a private practice. She's a therapist, so she's killing it. And. But for me, and we have kids and lives and things to take care of, it's like, whoa, am I going to start over at 38? You know, that that's a big risk. And as we get older, it becomes harder to risk because it's more of a risk.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:16:07]:
Yeah.
Kevin Sweeney [00:16:08]:
And I just. We made a decision to close it down over Christmas. And it, despite the pain and the grief, which is all real, our community allowed us to announce that and go through that process with complete grace. Like, when we announced to the church we were closing, it was in person. You know, we're telling stories, we're crying, we're laughing. My wife and I, when we were finally done telling a story, everyone stood up and gave us a standing ovation.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:16:39]:
That's cool.
Kevin Sweeney [00:16:40]:
Like, that's how it was received. And, yeah, there was heard and, of course, like, we had a season to, like, work through all that and to enjoy each other in the end. But, yeah, that was. I will say the thing I'm thankful for is neither my wife or I, who led it together, felt the unnecessary obligation to keep it going in order to somehow maintain its value. We said, this doesn't have to exist in perpetuity. This doesn't have to exist. This not existing beyond us does not devalue the decade, almost decade we just had. Let it be.
Kevin Sweeney [00:17:16]:
Real organisms live and die. That was amazing. It's hard, but that we're proud. I'm proud of that. I had a great experience doing it, to be honest, and that's over. And so, yeah, I'm, like two years removed from that, basically.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:17:31]:
That's very well said. When people are talking about you and a lot of, even your language, the word mystic gets brought up a lot. And I'm curious, how do you view yourself in that role?
Kevin Sweeney [00:17:46]:
Yes, 99.9% of people who say refer to themselves as a mystic. This is secret. Deep down, I'm like, no, but I still do that for myself. Now, there's an overall, like, if Richard Rohr talks about the move towards the mystical, to me, that's different, because that's, I think, a collective transition from a belief based faith to an experiential base faith. Now, what do you believe? But do you actually know? Not what abstract beliefs do you hold about God or Jesus, but do you actually have direct realization and experience of God and the divine for yourself in an awakening and transformative way? You know, not just what do you believe about the shape of the container, but how well are you connected with and consumed by the substance of God?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:18:39]:
Yeah.
Kevin Sweeney [00:18:40]:
So the simple thing about a mystic is the mystic is one whose life is defined by direct experience of the sacred. And so even in my own journey, which our journey is our journey, and I love that word as well, my experience began like, no youth groups, didn't know evangelicals existed. Went to Catholic Church as a kid and stopped going. Didn't really think about it. I had my own crisis, my own seeing through illusions of, oh, I thought if I was gonna play basketball in college, I would be happy, you know, I thought if I had this many people addicted to the attention, typical story, you know, and drugs and alcohol are very much a part of that, and they weren't doing that. And I was just like, well, what am I doing? And when I had this spontaneous awakening moment with God, it was direct, embodied experience and trusting the inner authority I had simply as a conscious human being to know what just happened. I just experienced God. I didn't have anybody confirming that, giving me language to make sense of it.
Kevin Sweeney [00:19:47]:
At that point, all I had was my own journey and what I knew. So my. I feel like I almost grew up backwards compared to a lot of my peers, is their handed a belief system, and then they believe those things. They're like, I believe these things. And when we're young, we're over identified with our beliefs. We think we are our beliefs like, we think we are our thinking label.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:11]:
Each other.
Kevin Sweeney [00:20:13]:
Say it again.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:14]:
That's how we label each other.
Kevin Sweeney [00:20:15]:
Like you are, even for ourselves. It's like we're so over identified with beliefs, we don't have this conscious experience of, I have beliefs. Like, as if I'm holding them in my hand. No, I have beliefs that are ever changing and influx and can do it. No, like, I actually feel like I am my beliefs and my belief system. That's not the same thing as having beliefs. That's why Ken Wilber talks about, you know, your belief system isn't just beliefs. It's actually the home for your.
Kevin Sweeney [00:20:44]:
It's like a house for your ego. It's what makes your ego feel safe. It's what makes your ego feel like I have a place. That's why when you challenge somebody beliefs, the ego has, like, a contracted death seizure reaction. That's what he calls it to that. Because for me to challenge your beliefs is actually to challenge what makes you feel at home or makes you feel like yourself. No. The mystic says, no, you're not those beliefs.
Kevin Sweeney [00:21:07]:
You, whatever you are, whatever I am is beneath, before and beyond those beliefs. There is a self that is much deeper than, and precedes the beliefs that we have. So the mystic has beliefs, but does not hold them the same way as other people. The mystic has beliefs, but is not all, but consciously knows I am not those beliefs. If I'm. If I'm this body and you take away a belief out of my hand, I can look around, smile back, I'm still me. It's cool. It's fine.
Kevin Sweeney [00:21:41]:
We're all fine here. That's why when people are deconstructing and evolving, direct experience carries you through so well, because you can let your beliefs change. When you know you aren't those beliefs, it's. It's no one's trying to kill you. You're simply growing in how you see the world. That's normal. That's natural. That's a healthy thing, you know, like, that's not to be resisted.
Kevin Sweeney [00:22:06]:
So the direct experience is the thing, you know, I think, for people. Yeah. Of why that. Why I am so comfortable with that term and why the mystics are the great poets and lovers. They are because they're not arguing about beliefs. You know, that you're. I don't argue about directions to the ocean. When I'm in the ocean, I'm just in it.
Kevin Sweeney [00:22:29]:
You can argue about how to get here all you want because I'm just trying to remain in it to the point where I become it. I don't care how you got here. And I don't argue about the chemical makeup of salt water, either. I'm not arguing about that. We're just in it, you know? So that's. That's. That's how I would say it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:22:48]:
I love that. You know, it also strikes me one of the reasons we do this is because when I hold, you know, certain beliefs, then a tribe is often formed around those, right. We all hold these beliefs together. Now I'm finding a secondary association and identity through the tribe because of a shared belief, which I think also messes people up when they go, well, I don't know if I. I don't know if I believe this thing as much as I used to. And on one level, you're dealing with that. Right. But then you're also dealing with, what does that mean for me in my standing in this group, if I no longer believe this? And I think that's what makes it hard for people.
Kevin Sweeney [00:23:23]:
Absolutely.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:23:25]:
And to be a mystic. But there's obviously so much power there, the way you're saying, just experience it in the moment.
Kevin Sweeney [00:23:32]:
There's so many barriers towards us allowing ourselves to evolve and grow. And one of those is institutional acceptance. And one of the biggest ones, especially in the early, like, stage, people often go through when they talk about deconstruction, is the. Is the tribal belonging. I remember I was 24. I think I was about to finish my undergrad, and I was already in a very different place, you know, reading progressive folks and deconstructing and doing all that. Even at that point, I was in a very different place than my tribe. I was a part of, which was, like, low church, charismatic, like four square people.
Kevin Sweeney [00:24:07]:
You know, at the time, the first, like, churches I was really a part of. And I actually was visiting a church out here in Hawaii. My wife and I were out for a couple of weeks. We lived in Orange county in California after we got married for five years. And I listened to a church that I think has, like, sort of Calvary chapel ish connections. And I heard, I listen, and I'm like, oh, this is like one of the cooler churches, like, people my age are going to from what I saw from a distance. I'll go check it out. The sermon I heard was so ridiculous and problematic.
Kevin Sweeney [00:24:43]:
It was like demons and, like, nationalism and, like, war metaphors. It was. It was just a mockery, you know, of, like, the good news. And I remember at the end, they give an altar call, right? And I'm like, what are you asking people to say yes to after that, like, I'm still, like, that. I could so wholeheartedly disagree with someone and think what they're saying is genuinely, like, problematic and dangerous and be like. But just the fact you have the audacity and courage to still call people that, like, that's awesome. Like, that's amazing. It's.
Kevin Sweeney [00:25:23]:
It's scary where you're calling him to, but the fact that you do it still blows me away. I'm like, I respect that part.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:25:30]:
You know, I like it.
Kevin Sweeney [00:25:32]:
I do. I would be ashamed. I'd be so embarrassed after. I would never ask anybody of anything, right? And, you know, he gives this all, and I get it. I've been in those environments, like, classic, like, head down, every. Every head bowed, like, I've been in those places. And you can have very real experiences in those places. And I was in the back and I started getting emotional and I started welling up with tears, which is funny, you know, some nice lady in the church is probably like, you know, pastor, I got another young wanderer, you know, young man coming home to the Lord.
Kevin Sweeney [00:26:05]:
But I say that story because of what you were just saying in that moment. I just had this moment of clarity of, like, I can't be a part of these kinds of places. It's not just personal preference. It's actual conviction, integrity and alignment of how I see and understand the way of Jesus. And I started getting emotional because I immediately felt the possible alienation that will come from that. I'm not going to get all my friends, we graduate Bible college. They're not going to invite me to speak at their churches. I'm not going to have those camaraderie based relationships, which are amazing, you know, like the friendships.
Kevin Sweeney [00:26:40]:
And we are all on the same page and we speak at each other's churches and we do all this. I'm like, I can. When you start to grow and evolve, something within you intuitively senses all of the social implications or economic implications of what that means. And that's really hard. There's no glib, funny, clever answers to get around that. That stuff's just hard. And it involves real grief. And while I don't do it, I get why people stay in places they've outgrown because they're not ready and they don't have the courage yet to accept whatever consequences come from their evolution.
Kevin Sweeney [00:27:15]:
But if you ever want to keep growing and live with integrity, you have to. And there will be grief and you will lose relationships, not because you want to, but because you're no longer in the tribe and that tribal belonging is one of the most powerful, powerful forces, like, there is. Because historically, that's how we survived, you know, like in ancient times. That's why it's there, because that's how you're. You survive, and that's a real thing. And there is a lot of loss there. But it went for the mystic. And for people who keep growing, eventually you're like, everything I've ever let go of was simply getting in the way of my own freedom anyways.
Kevin Sweeney [00:27:53]:
Yeah, there's. There's grief for that. There's cost. One of the things I say in the intro to my first book is the peace the mystic has in public comes out of the tears they've shed in private. All the grief, all the letting go, all the criticism you take, whatever it is, you know, the things people say when they don't understand what you're doing, that's all very real. But if I can embrace that into my body, grieve over it, which oftentimes happens through tears, all I keep gaining is more and more of who I really am and a deeper union with the christ that holds all things together. So is there a loss? Yes. But what you gain is yourself.
Kevin Sweeney [00:28:30]:
And that's always. That's. I keep trusting that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:35]:
Well said. You have a podcast with a great title. I'd love to know what's behind it. The title is the church needs therapy. A little tongue in cheek, maybe. What. What's. What's behind that? That brand?
Kevin Sweeney [00:28:50]:
I mean, one, I just think it's funny, you know, so that. Let's just. Usually I'll think something's really funny, then I'll build, like, a more sophisticated answer around that. But a part of that is, despite me leaving congregational life in a pastoral sense, which, like, I'm not a part of a local church now, I would love to one day. It's a bit hard for me to find, excuse me, a place out here that makes sense for me and would make sense for them as well. But I really hope to find that. But the church needs therapy is. Of course, there's all of the critique.
Kevin Sweeney [00:29:28]:
Of course we're challenging white christian nationalism. Of course we're challenging all of the things we can sit around and talk about. People are talking about right now, and they should be. But also, that's for the sake of transformation and growth. I started our church already past the angry and oppositional stage of deconstruction and growth. That first big stage. Yes, there will be a season of, like, real oppositional energy. Like, let's sit around, we're gonna have some drinks with our friends, and we're just gonna talk all this about.
Kevin Sweeney [00:30:02]:
About the church. Fine. That's. That's normal. That's a part of growing. But we don't stay there. Like, even roars, you know, center fraction and contemplation. One of their taglines is, the best criticism of the bad is the practice of the better.
Kevin Sweeney [00:30:18]:
I never. The church is no longer valuable. No, there's liberating versions of the church, and there's oppressive versions of the church. There's loving, inclusive, welcoming versions of the church, and there's exclusive, alienating, you know, self preserving versions of the church. There's always a way forward. So even the people don't go to therapy when they're hopeless. They go to therapy because they have hope. A hopeless person doesn't go to therapy.
Kevin Sweeney [00:30:47]:
Therapy is like, maybe, you know, or there is still the possibility of a life that gets bigger and wider and better and more hopeful and more filled with joy. So the church needs therapies. Yes. I have all my critiques, and I've had those for a long time. I've been saying this. I'm tired. I'm tired of saying. Everybody else can say I'm tired of it, because for me, and this is, to me, at the heart of being a Christian, the real energy and magic of it is the incarnation of life.
Kevin Sweeney [00:31:24]:
What do we keep creating? How do we keep loving? What do we keep building? Yes, we've gone through those stages, being angry, grieving over that. The question for me is, who has the courage to keep loving? Who has the courage to keep their heart open when you have a million reasons not to, and we do, from personal hurt, from cultural cynicism, from political environment where there's a million reasons to shut down your heart. And I don't judge people for that. But who has the courage to remain open and to continue to embody the way forward? That's the journey for me. So the church needs therapy is. Yeah, of course. Let's say what we have to say, let's dismantle. But that's all for the sake of clearing out a path to keep building and keep growing and keep creating.
Kevin Sweeney [00:32:12]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:32:12]:
Well, and you obviously imply a metaphor with a willingness to put work in. Right. If you're going to therapy, there's a willingness of. This is going to require something of me, but because I have the hope, I'm willing to put the work in. And I love pairing that with the church, we're willing to put the work in to make it better with the hope that it could be better. But we also are going to have to work through some probably heavy things.
Kevin Sweeney [00:32:37]:
Yeah. And that always, like, I'm help with, with my publisher. Like, I'm like the editor, whatever they call it, the editor organizer of like a compilation book that's coming out. It's called, like, I forget what it's like every, I forget. It's like everyday mystics basically, right? Because I'm asking people if we talk about being a mystic and direct experience of God, not defined just by our beliefs, but by that experience, what, what does that actually mean for a Friday at 10:00 a.m. What does that mean? If you're a pastor and a mystic, how does that liberate you to lead differently and in a more healthy way? And the work you're talking about for the mystic, if at beneath everything, is the radical and universal. Yes. Over your life.
Kevin Sweeney [00:33:24]:
Like, that was my first experience of God, was a universal affirmation of life. You're good. Like, that was my first experience. I've always trusted that and grown into that. And you can do that work. Face those things, face the shadow, face all of the ways we've been complicit in evil and injustice and systemic issues of races. Whatever it is, the mystic can do that. It's okay that you challenging that part of our identity is not you devaluing me.
Kevin Sweeney [00:33:59]:
That's not the same thing. So whenever people are highly defensive, don't want to change, that's just the fragile, insecure ego that's still over. So over identified with illusions about who the church is, an unnecessary need for power in a worldly sense. Like versions of the church. No, like, no one's trying to get rid of the church. We're trying to deconstruct, break down and break through to build something else. So that work is like, if you, it's ironic. So I'm like, if you really were as christian as you were and trusted God, you could do that work because God will carry you through that.
Kevin Sweeney [00:34:38]:
You are not those things. You are something that's bigger and beyond. You can let go of the ways you saw things for the sake of allowing a new thing to emerge. So there's an irony of the most based on abstract beliefs, the most dogmatic christians are the ones who least trust the process of death and resurrection in their life or are willing to confront the pain. That's the story. The cross, on one level, is an icon of acceptance in my as, from a mystical view of the cross, from my perspective is Jesus taking everything into him, saying, even all of this. This does not end what James Finley calls, which I love, the deathless presence of Christ that keeps going. Let the church die because it'll be born again.
Kevin Sweeney [00:35:23]:
Let your version, the way things are supposed to be, die. It'll be born again. That's the whole story. We trust for ourselves. We trust in Jesus, and I think we can trust with the church, too. So that's. That's what I know. Like, there's a lot of things I'm not good at.
Kevin Sweeney [00:35:40]:
Like, I joke around with people and say, six years into leading a church, and this is a joke, but it's true. Ten minutes before, we were having, like, a meeting, like, we didn't really have a whole staff. Like, you know, our meeting, like that. Like a leadership thing. Ten minutes before the meeting, I googled, what do you do in a meeting? Church stop meeting. And the funny part is, in my mind, I'm trying to get out of the meeting, and I'm the one responsible for leading the meeting, too. It's probably a very short meeting, logistical, all that. Like, I need so much help and all that, but the deep interior journey of trusting death and resurrection, being comfortable with uncertainty, feeling peace even when things are falling apart.
Kevin Sweeney [00:36:30]:
I'm like, that's what I know. That's the mystic. That's what we get. The other stuff is a lot. You know, we're gonna make a lot, fumble our way through and make mistakes, but the substance of all this. But this is everything for us, you know?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:36:42]:
So, yeah, I love that you have referenced already integral theory in a number of ways, and probably a lot of people listening or watching this may not be super familiar with integral theory. You talked about Ken Wilber earlier. Okay, so I have. I have attempted to wrap my head around integral theory. At one point, I was, like, super into it and fascinated. Ultimately, it's one of those I chalk up to, like, really interesting, but I'm not quite sure what to do with it in real life. So when I. When I saw that you do a lot with this and then you've referenced it, I'm like, okay, I'm going to pick your brain on this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:37:25]:
Because one of the challenges I've had with integral theory, one of the reasons I like it, is this idea of progression, right? Like, here's where you are, here's how you see things, here's how they make sense, but you keep going, you keep learning. And I love that concept. One of the things I struggle with is the idea of and in the book, I read a book called Integral Christianity. I don't know if you've read this one, but it's basically taking integral theory specifically to the christian thought. And in that book, I remember numerous times was, hey, we don't judge people for where they're at. And there's not like, this judgment of, well, you haven't arrived where I am yet. I don't know how to. To practice that, because there.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:38:06]:
Whenever I would try to embody this, there was a sense of like, hey, you're stuck. Keep going. Like, you're. Like, you're. You've hit a ceiling in the. In this, you know, season, you're in, like, keep going. And it always felt like it could created this sense of judgment of, like, well, I'm further than you, so that's why I'm saying it. And I didn't like that feeling at all.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:38:30]:
So with my own issues just put out there on the table for you. Kevin, how have you found integral theory to be helpful? How have you gotten over the issues I've got with it?
Kevin Sweeney [00:38:42]:
Yeah, that's good for people who don't know Ken Wilbur is and don't know about, you know, his theory of everything, and. And, you know, his integral theory and the all quadrants, all levels. My recommendation is don't read them. You know what?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:39:02]:
I can second that, because it made it, I think, harder for me when I was trying to just really sit in that place. Yeah.
Kevin Sweeney [00:39:10]:
Mine's more like, it just takes when. If people ask me to recommend them books for me, it's very, very. It's always situational for the person, for their personality, and also where they're at in their stage of consciousness and growth and faith. And so this person, I'll be like, actually someone, a writer, you know, who I gave a blurb to, his book reached out to me however many months ago and was like, what couple books would you read? I said, what were the last couple books you read you really resonate with? And he told me, I'm like, I would read these two, and that would be a different answer for you or different answer for another friend, you know, and that's just my discernment and my thinking. We all move forward one step at a time. If we go from a to z, if I sense a person's right around e or f, I'm like, giving them a book at s makes no sense, and it's not helpful. There was times in my journey where I was very much like, emerging emergent church 2008 ish, like that era. Brian McLaren, Tony Jones, Doug Padgett.
Kevin Sweeney [00:40:09]:
That was my first big stick. Stage of evolution was through all them. And I remember reading John Caputo for the first time, who's, like, a continental philosopher, writes about, like, you know, the weakness of God. And I remember one summer reading him and looking. Reading the book, and it's not even a big book. And I was like, I'm not ready for this. Just like, honestly, I'm like, I don't get it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:40:29]:
Yeah.
Kevin Sweeney [00:40:30]:
And then a year went by and reading other people, and reading Peter Owens and reading people are referencing him, and people are building on him or drawing from him. As next summer, I was like, oh, like, now I. Now I can get into this more. Wilbur's like, you really have to be in the right place. So that's just my disclaimer for people. Like, you really got to be ready for that. And that's the next thing drawing you forward. But there's multiple parts to integral, like, so Ken Wilber, listening, not a christian, you know, created a theory of everything.
Kevin Sweeney [00:40:58]:
He would be more like a philosopher of religion, even though I think his orientation skews more buddhist than anything else. I. I have been the most immersed in his work for about ten years. Like, it takes time to get initiated into it. You know, when you read philosophers, like, you have to get initiated into the language. Huh? Say it again.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:41:19]:
Your handshake in, like, a club that.
Kevin Sweeney [00:41:21]:
You'Re a part of. Oh, man. Like, you just. There's so much new stuff. And he's very repetitive, but it's. It's good because it's so complex at first. But I will say from. To reference the part you're talking about, Jeremy, of, like, looking at developmental maps, spiral dynamics.
Kevin Sweeney [00:41:39]:
Rob Bell, I think, really popularized for a lot of evangelical ish kind of folks, probably 10, 12, 14 years ago when he first started talking about it. It's this idea that, you know, Ken Wilber has his own version of that. You know, James Fowler is a pastor who wrote about that a long time ago. Fowler stages. And they're all different versions of the same thing. And how do you acknowledge. So your question is, like, how do people. How do you acknowledge and have a map? I think about it like a map.
Kevin Sweeney [00:42:07]:
Ken Wilber is a map maker. He's not arguing for religious point. He's making a map of human consciousness and its development through culture in the world. It's fascinating. And so how do you acknowledge there's a map here and an evolutionary movement forward that you can mark through certain stages that he will stages of face, stages of consciousness that he says are visible in religious traditions across history and across the world and contemporary psychology. So the question becomes, how can you acknowledge that you would be at what's considered a further stage than somebody without judging or having contempt or having disdain or being like, what the is wrong with you? Why aren't you further than where you are? It's like the pastor. Sometimes it's like the pastor who finally get something after eight years of wrestling with it and reading books and being obsessed, and he wants to do a four week sermon series and thinks my whole congregation is going to catch up. I'm like, homie, that took you eight years.
Kevin Sweeney [00:43:08]:
You can't just do a sermon series and think they're going to get what the death of God is, you know? Like, it'd be cool with that. You're in a church. And so one of the defining markers for Wilbur and people hear this from roar and other places, is this idea of transcending and inclusion, right? You transcend the previous stage you were in, but you include the best parts of it, and you include how that is. You're building on that still. Now, when you do the real work of not just transcending, which is the growth, you see more now your vision is wider. That's fantastic. The real work is the including and acceptance, and how do we do that? So, for me, pastorally knowing about this while I was leading a church, it was the one of the greatest gifts for me, Jeremy, to know this stuff while I was leading a church, because I'm like, everybody has the freedom to be exactly where they are. Me being further doesn't make me better.
Kevin Sweeney [00:44:06]:
And I can say that to myself. I'm not telling anybody that. But in my mind, I'm like, that doesn't mean I'm better, doesn't mean I'm more loved, doesn't mean I'm more accepted by God, doesn't mean I'm more embraced. It just means I happen to see more because of the work I've done. Now, what that does is actually create a sacred gift and responsibility to help people grow and move forward. And, you know, when spiral dynamics uses, like, blue, orange, green, for example, you could say three, four, and five, whatever. When I look at somebody, Jeremy, I'm not like, you're at three. You're 32.
Kevin Sweeney [00:44:43]:
Like, why aren't you further? Like, come on, I was doing this. This is 15 years ago for like, no. I'm like, actually, my goal isn't even to get them to go from four to five or from blue to orange. My goal as a pastor is to help them be the healthiest, most loving, most healed version of them at that particular stage right now, knowing they might not ever go past that stage. And I. And the only part of me that would need them, too, is some weird, insecure ego need that I need to work through. Yes. I don't need you to grow for me, but I acknowledge if you grow, every time we grow, your understanding of reality increases in complexity, and it increases in inclusion.
Kevin Sweeney [00:45:31]:
Who's included in the tribe? So you go from, like, an ethnocentric to a world centric to a Cosmo centric, I think world centric. There's a universal humanity, and we're all one is better than being ethnocentric. God's only with our tribe. That one, to me, is better for the world. But me wanting you to grow is. This is better for the world and for you. But I don't need it for me. I'm sleep.
Kevin Sweeney [00:45:57]:
I sleep well at night. I don't need you to be further. And if you're ready to grow, let me push you a little further. But if I don't sense you're ready for the next thing, I'm not forcing you there. I want you to be healthy, healed, and whole wherever you are, knowing you may never grow past that stage. But if you do, I can also help you transition through that. That's why I'm going to give you this book. That's why I'm going to say this to you.
Kevin Sweeney [00:46:20]:
You. You're not. That's not helpful for you right now. So for me, it's just the gift of discerning where people are. It's like a map. If I know I'm looking out, like a 37 story window, I'm like, oh, if you're on that road, the best thing is to turn left, because at 05:00 it's, you know, that part gets trafficking. Oh, if you're over there and you want to surf, the reef is like this, because I can see I can help you navigate this world better. But my work is not needing you to be anywhere other than where you are for the sake of my ability to be at peace or have joy.
Kevin Sweeney [00:46:51]:
That is just high levels of differentiation when it comes to pastoring and when it comes to leading. So I always found it to be one of the that in the enneagram for types, but for a map, I'm like, man, even for people who are frustrated with their family, I'm like, dude, that's exactly what that person at that stage who sees reality, that's exactly what I can predict what they'll say to you. When you say that, why are you still surprised? Like, why are you surprised when you go home for Thanksgiving? People are saying that. Why are you bothered by that? Like, I can be critical of the things you're saying, but still not be unable to embrace you as a human being while you're saying it. That's my work. I don't. I think, for me, that was my guiding sort of ethic and compass of working with the spiral, working with stages of consciousness. This was throughout almost my entire life in the church, was.
Kevin Sweeney [00:47:54]:
I don't think I ever told one person in the church about spiral dynamics, because it's like the enneagram. Like, the wisdom of the Enneagram means you don't talk about the Enneagram most of the time. You don't talk like you do if people want to learn about it. But no, the wisdom of the enneagram does not mean I teach you about the enneagram. It means, with the wisdom and ability I have to see, I can help serve you better. You're an Enneagram nine who struggles to. They just fade into the atmosphere, go with the flow, struggle to believe their voice is heard. I know my consistent message to you in the church as a nine is your voice matters.
Kevin Sweeney [00:48:31]:
We want more from you. That's my gift to you, you know, because I can see I'm not like, you know, the enneagram and. No, the wisdom. I don't tell people about the spiral. I'm just able to serve them and guide them, challenge them, embrace them wherever they are, you know? And that is probably one of my favorite parts of pastoring and leading people is doing that for people. So that's. That's not all of integral theory, by the way. The stages of stuff is a big part of it.
Kevin Sweeney [00:49:02]:
And so that, for me, is one of the helpful when we talk about a practical pastoral part of that is that dynamic right there, you know, because you can sense when someone's ready to grow. In integral theory and spiral dynamics, there's different stages, like alpha, beta, gamma. I think that's how they say. But it's like you're either entering into a new stage, being solidified in the stage, or starting to exit a stage. As a practitioner and a person who sees you can sense that in people. If I think they're looking over the edge of the old, I'm gonna give them some stuff that might push them further, because they're ready for that. And for me, a great. When Jesus says, those who have eyes to see, that's the freedom of a pastor, you just.
Kevin Sweeney [00:49:43]:
You don't. When people are ready, they'll see it. And Zen, there's a saying, when the students ready, the teacher appears. And until then, it doesn't matter because they're not ready and they're not open. But when they are, you sense that. And now I can guide you further. So that's my very practical part of that, how that works out.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:50:01]:
So everybody don't read Ken Wilber, just listen to Kevin on his podcast, read his book. Cause it'll make way more sense than if you realize that. That was very well said. And it reminds me of Jesus saying, you know, throwing your pearls before swine, of giving people things that they don't need it. That's not helpful, you know? And we think, no, this is. This is good stuff. It's like, they're not ready for that. So I think that's good.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:50:27]:
What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
Kevin Sweeney [00:50:36]:
Um, probably when I first got introduced to the faith and just heard a conventional classical version of, like, penal substitutionary atonement. You're separated from God. God sends Jesus as an atoning sacrifice for your sin. You can cross over the sort of gap that exists. And now with that, you can be in union connected. People who believe that wouldn't probably use union as a word, but now you can be connected with God. So that conventional way of seeing is not. I'm trying to look something up right now is not how I would see it.
Kevin Sweeney [00:51:21]:
And I remember thinking about, even in Bible college, like, the difference between concepts and reality, you know, the way we organize the world, like spiritual intelligence and spiritual experience, which I spoke about earlier. And I shared this quote on my instagram a while ago, and I just pulled it up and I wrote this. This is like a more of a mystical way of understanding the cross. Now, for me, it's one of the many ways, because to me, there's a. There's a multiplicity of ways. You know, the cross is an overabundance of meaning in the cross, which I find amazing. But I wrote, the cross is the bridgeless bridge that allows us to cross over a gap that doesn't exist so we can fully inhabit the space we're already in.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:52:03]:
Ooh, I love cross. A gap that doesn't exist. That's great.
Kevin Sweeney [00:52:06]:
Well, it's a bridge, so, you know, the whole bridge metaphor. So I'm like, no, the cross is a bridgeless bridge, which is, you know, it's a paradox. The cross is the bridgeless bridge that allows us to cross over a gap that doesn't exist so we can fully inhabit the space we're already in. So it's like a lot of the things, you know, you overcame a gap. No, you're not overcoming a gap that actually exists between you and God. What you're overcoming is the belief that there is a gap. You're not walking across a bridge so you can experience God. You are starting to realize that.
Kevin Sweeney [00:52:44]:
You're starting to unmask the illusion that a bridge is required to be fully present to God. No, no, no. This is a different way of. That's the mystical awakening is becoming who you already are in the lifelong sort of tension of what that means and how we work that out, you know, and. And that's very reflective of how I see religious traditions and how I see rituals and practices as fingers pointing to the moon. That's a zen saying from DT Suzuki. And the value, religious rituals are very, very valuable, but for. Not.
Kevin Sweeney [00:53:17]:
For. Not for the reasons most people think that are. That's how I have always worked with them. So, yeah, I love your quote.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:24]:
Makes me picture, like, this bridge, but it's just, it's just set on top of, like, a piece of land. So, like, it's not. It's not actually connecting anything. It's just like, you know, the irony of a bridge that you're walking across as if there is some gap, but there is no gap, you know, I mean, like, you just walk, like you. Someone could walk next to you, not on the bridge, and get to the same place, you know, I love that image. That's great. What do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
Kevin Sweeney [00:53:58]:
I mean, some of the quick ones are ones I think many people are talking about very profoundly now. I think for the past 20 years or probably longer, people have been saying it, but the real morphing into a real white christian nationalist movement is so dangerous and so I is so idolatrous. It's just mind blowing that it is not more recognizable, invisible to people. You know, a church that needs institutional political power for the sake of validation or safety or whatever they are or preservation is a very, very weak and insecure church that doesn't know who it truly is, you know? So I think that and everything that comes with that, you know, the need to be a part of bearing the history of what the United States is and the idealistic illusion that it is like, I think about America on one level as, like, a collective ego. You know, there's, like, a collective consciousness to it. So if you work with an individual, say, as a therapist or a psychoanalyst, or you have friends, and, like, an individual who is completely unwilling to be honest about their. About their history, one will never grow. You can't.
Kevin Sweeney [00:55:19]:
You know, like, how many. How many times does a pastor have to rhyme a different world of, like, you cannot heal what you do not feel. You cannot be a million different. And those are all great. We have to come up with a million ways to say the same thing. So much transformation is entering into the shadows of the unconscious. This is a part of integral theory to the shadow work, entering into the shadows, recognizing the wounds that all of the things we've withdrawn our awareness from, we don't want to take ownership of seeing them for what they are, naming them for what they are, integrating them into who we are, and starting to grow beyond them, that's. You can't escape that for individual growth.
Kevin Sweeney [00:55:56]:
And so when a country represents a collective ego, you're like, oh, you're just a person who doesn't want to be honest about your past, which means you're highly insecure, you're not willing to own it, and you'll never grow, and that will kill you. The things that you're not willing to own for yourself and consciously die to will kill you. And so I think any of our complicity within any versions of those kinds of faiths. No, they're not trusting the death and resurrection, like I said. And there's a million things, you know, a church to be more inclusive, more hopeful, more welcoming, you know, more committed to justice, less concerned with platforms less, etc. Etc. There's so much to that. We all know it, you know, we all know what those things are.
Kevin Sweeney [00:56:38]:
Like I said about incarnation, this is why I love clergy and love pastors. We just need people to keep creating those spaces. Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:56:47]:
Okay, we're going to lighten it up a little bit. You've taken. You've taken us deep. This is a question I like asking because I get so radically different answers on this question, and this is. We're going to change gears here. So you're ready for a curveball. I want you to think about wine. Now, I assume you do drink wine.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:07]:
I know you're not right now, but it's because it's morning. So. So imagine it's not morning. Is there a moment, if I were to say to you, Kevin, what was the greatest glass of wine you ever had in your life? Is there a memory that comes to mind of, like, it was this glass, or it was this bottle, or it was this dinner, or I was with my wife, or is there anything that. That conjures up if I said, have you ever had an incredible moment, to use your word, moment with wine? Do you have anything?
Kevin Sweeney [00:57:40]:
Hmm. I do remember being in Cinque Terre, Italy, with my wife in our late twenties, and realizing it's cheaper to buy wine than it is water at restaurants. So that's a funny one. And I was. And I'm the. Like, I come from a whole different background of just how we did things, and I'm super cheap and frugal, and I remember how much they charged for water. And I went to the restroom and just filled up my hands, and I was just gulping water. I was like, I'll take the faucet without you knowing.
Kevin Sweeney [00:58:14]:
I would just say that that entire. When I finished grad school in 2012, my wife and I went to Europe for a month. We're like, hey, we can either save ten grand when we move back to Hawaii and be safe, or we can go to Europe for a month. They're like, let's just start over when we go to Hawaii. And so that was the first trip I ever drank wine. I was really into beer in my twenties and learned a lot, you know, through that, and I just wasn't drinking wine. And in Europe was when I started drinking red, red wine just all the time. And so I think that entire trip of big transitional season for me, you know, done with grad school, going to start this new endeavor, started church, and how exciting and scary that was.
Kevin Sweeney [00:58:55]:
And that Europe trip was like, all of the learnings over, and now it's moving towards the real courage of it. But that whole trip was, oh, this is what made me love wine. So I think that entire Florence, you know, Cinque Terre, it's probably saying that wrong. France all over was a special time. Cause then I grew to love wine from that trip. So, yeah, probably that whole trip.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:59:20]:
That's a great answer. And it's hard not to. It's hard not to be a wine fan when you're in Europe. You know, that's. They do make it easy. All right, let's wrap this up with a lightning round.
Kevin Sweeney [00:59:29]:
Some.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:59:30]:
Some questions. First thing that comes to mind.
Kevin Sweeney [00:59:34]:
Quick, quick.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:59:35]:
What is something that's blowing your mind right now?
Kevin Sweeney [00:59:40]:
My kids growing up, they're five and seven, just how smart they are. Sports, connections of the mind, learning how old they look. I'm just in awe and grateful to be pretty present to it right now.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:59:56]:
That's cool.
Kevin Sweeney [00:59:57]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:59:57]:
What's the problem you're trying to solve right now?
Kevin Sweeney [01:00:03]:
How to help fund change makers who are doing all of the important work of the spirit and justice and healing and liberation in the world, who do not have places in previous institutions that they were a part of. Wow.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:00:22]:
I know.
Kevin Sweeney [01:00:23]:
So I have a new organization that we're starting that's basically doing that.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:00:27]:
What's it called?
Kevin Sweeney [01:00:28]:
It's called. It's called Rooftop alliance, and it's just not even public. Yeah, I'll talk about it, but it's not, like, fully public in terms of launching. And. Yeah. I have a friend who's based out of New York City who's an amazing story of I want to give the sunset season of my life. His name is Rod Colburn. Amazing guy.
Kevin Sweeney [01:00:49]:
To create as much change and lifetime. Like a lot. Not lifetime. Long time Wall street guy. Still works for Deutsche bank and has had a radical reorientation of how he sees the world the past eight years via the Trump era. And he's like, I'm committing the rest of my life to work for justice and liberation. And we're finding out a way to create an ecosystem to fund people who are doing some of the work that we see as most important.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:01:15]:
Yeah, yeah, it's cool. What's something that you're excited about right now?
Kevin Sweeney [01:01:23]:
Um, one besides the immediate is surfing. Since the first south swell of the season, I haven't surfed in town yet. We call it town. I've surfed on North Shore when I was still up. And then, yeah, we're having a first, like, our first rooftop event. You know, it's very relational, very invite, like, on a rooftop, even before we have everything settled. And so that's a big thing. It's the first event of our new organization.
Kevin Sweeney [01:01:48]:
And to me, it's a symbolic and real first step of after an 18 month liminal space in between space, after closing down our church and waiting and not knowing what's next and trusting that will, it will emerge on its own time. It's the. This is the thing I feel like I'm going to give the next decade of my life to. So that in June, that rooftop event is. This is the first step towards. Towards the next thing. And that's a big deal. When I know what, what a decade takes to keep building something.
Kevin Sweeney [01:02:17]:
So it's very special and scary, you know, to do it.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:22]:
That's very cool. I'm excited to hear about it.
Kevin Sweeney [01:02:25]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:26]:
Is there anything else you'd like to add to our interview that I have not asked you, but you're like, man, I really wanted to say that.
Kevin Sweeney [01:02:35]:
I think, one, I'm grateful to be invited on here. You know, I don't take for granted connections and relationships. I'm in a very ice. I'm in the most isolated landmass on the planet. So building relationships with people in a transcultural sense, to collaborate and work together, is not easy. You know, it's easier now. So I really value these kinds of connections. So I'm super grateful for this personally, and I think for people.
Kevin Sweeney [01:03:03]:
You know, every time you begin again, a part of you is born again. And as we grow and get older, I'm almost 40. The real issue for a journey of faith is not whether you're right or wrong. It's whether you're open or closed. Who has the courage to remain open, who has the courage to begin again, who has the courage to keep going. These are the things that, to me, define our journey into the second half of our lives. And so despite a million reasons, you know, Mirabai star, who's like an inner spiritual teacher, you know, does stuff with CAC, with roaring them. Amazing writer.
Kevin Sweeney [01:03:40]:
I love her work, but she talks about, like, keeping our hearts open despite every reason not to. And that is very important. And I love that line. And I think that's what faith is in the second half of our life, keeping our hearts open despite every reason not to. That's what I aspire to keep doing. So that's an invitation for all of us.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:04:04]:
That's great. All right, Kevin, how can people find you if they are resonating with what you're saying?
Kevin Sweeney [01:04:10]:
Where.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:04:10]:
Where should they go? What should they look at?
Kevin Sweeney [01:04:11]:
Yeah, probably the most consistent at Kevin Sweeney one on Instagram, on my feed is, like, quotes and reels and stuff like that. Then all my stories is my son scoring 36 points as a five year old in his basketball game and my daughter and him doing all kinds of stuff. My daughter playing soccer. So Instagram, the podcast is called the church needs therapy. You can look it up anywhere. Apple, Spotify. And also my first two books are on Amazon that came out the past couple years. The first one's called the making of a mystic, and the second one's called the joy of letting go.
Kevin Sweeney [01:04:48]:
And, yeah, those are probably the best places to tap in and kind of follow along and hear more about this. I appreciate you saying that.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:04:56]:
You also have. Kevinsweeneynow.com yes, the web, my own website.
Kevin Sweeney [01:05:01]:
Is kevinsweeneynow.com, that shows you a bit more of offerings. I have, you know, glimpses into kind of the other stuff I'm doing, so. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:05:13]:
Well, kevin, I think just, you know, we've. We've got to digitally meet for the first time. I've followed you for a while, but I've seen your work from afar and just hearing your voice now, you. You really embody what it means to be open. And so I just want to say thank you for modeling that. Thank you for inviting people into that. That is something that resonates so deeply with me of, you know, I just turned 40 this year, and I about to turn 41, actually. And I want to be, you know, that guy that's continually open, continually growing, continually learning.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:05:43]:
And so I just appreciate when you find another. Find another voice that's in there and giving really great wisdom and insight and how to do it, it's huge. So thanks for all the work you're doing, and thanks for taking time out of your surfing day to sit down, drink.
Kevin Sweeney [01:06:00]:
If I can see the surf from here, if the wind shifts to onshore, and I don't surf, dude, I'm gonna be mad at you, bro, because I could have surf. You know what?
Jeremy Jernigan [01:06:11]:
We had this moment, Kevin.
Kevin Sweeney [01:06:12]:
That's a good point. You see, you're calling me back. You're calling me back to the moment.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:06:17]:
It was a good moment. So.
Kevin Sweeney [01:06:20]:
Yeah. Thanks, man.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:06:22]:
All right, everybody, I want to thank you for listening and watching. Hopefully this was as enlightening to you as it was to me. We will see you all on the next one.
Kevin Sweeney [01:06:35]:
Thanks for joining us for Cabernet and pray. We'd love to hear what you thought of today's episode or what you'd like to see more of in the future. You can email us [email protected] and if you like this episode, please consider leaving us a five star review. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you can also find us [email protected].
