Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:00]:
Hello, friends, and welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray. This is episode 24, and today we are sitting down with author Adam McHugh, and his journey has got a lot of overlap to my journey. Adam is a former hospice chaplain in Los Angeles who's now a wine tour guide and sommelier in the Santa Ines Valley nearest Santa Barbara. He's the author of three books, including his new memoir, Blood from a Stone, a memoir of how wine brought me back from the dead, and we're going to dive into this book with him in the episode today. Now, this is someone who has gone from a ministry role into the world of wine, and when I read this book, I immediately connected with his story. Although obviously many of the particulars are different, this is someone who I deeply resonate with, and you're going to see that in the episode as we dive into some of these things together. Now, I thought it would be cool to give you a quote from the book to set up the intro, and then we'll hear from Adam. But this just gives you a little flavor of what he's writing in this book.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:01:17]:
Here's what he says. In every civilization, blood is the sign of life. Lifeblood fills you and warms you, coursing through you, even when you are still. When it dries up, life is extinguished, and wine has long been associated with the blood of the gods. The stories of wine gods are often violent, with deities torn limb from limb, like branches ripped from vines. Since that is how you release their blood, receive their life, you have to squeeze the stones to get the blood out. For believers, we drink a wine that reveals blood shed for forgiveness, a cup of suffering emptied for love. As we partake of the blood of crushed grapes, we discover union with the life of Christ.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:02:09]:
In the deepest places, we experience not only the God of wine, but the God in wine more than the God of us. We meet the God in us. We share the same blood, and we are family. To drink wine is to participate in a divine life. Enjoy. Episode 24.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:19]:
All right, well, welcome to the podcast, Adam McHugh.
Adam McHugh [00:04:24]:
Thanks, Jeremy. It's good to be with you.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:27]:
Well, today, as we begin, we need to talk about the wine that we're drinking before we get into this amazing conversation. So today, what I've got in honor of our guest, I went to the Santa Ines region, and I'm drinking a 2021 movedra from Sarlos and sons. This is in the region that Adam has fallen in love with, so only felt appropriate. And what's cool is we had the owner and winemaker Keith Sarlos on episode 15 of this podcast, so call back to him as well. Movedra is a. Is a big bodied wine. Maybe those of you listening watching aren't super familiar with this one. Lots of really interesting flavors I get on this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:14]:
Not a lot of the typical fruit flavors maybe you're thinking of, but I did get some BlackBerry. But then, really, I'm getting really rich, savory notes like sweet tobacco, roasted meat, and black olives, which, if you drink wine regularly, these are fun notes to have and changes it up a little bit. So I'm enjoying this. Adam, what are you, what are you drinking today?
Adam McHugh [00:05:35]:
I'm drinking a story of soil. So another wine from my area here, but farther west than where Sarlus is, it's called. The winery is called story of soil, one of my favorite wineries on the planet. And they source from a few different places around the Santa's valley and Santa Barbara county. But this one is a Pinot noir from the Bent rock vineyard, which is one of our most heralded pinot vineyards in all of this county and really all of the central coast of California. And yeah, it's only like 150 case production wine storage soil is a tiny little family owned boutique producer that makes some of my favorite, kind of most finessed, most graceful styles of wine across the board.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:21]:
Now, just curious, you live in a notable wine region. Does this. Does this heavily sway your normal go to wines? Do you feel like you have to stay local, or do you feel like you branch out? Or how does that work when you live in that region?
Adam McHugh [00:06:37]:
I mean, it's certainly a lot easier to get access to all of these wines when you live 2 miles from about 75 wineries. But no, I always try to keep expanding my palate, and I usually am going towards France and Italy. And I've been experimenting a lot more with northern Spain, just as much for the interesting nature of those wines as for the price point. You know, California wines, even though this area is quite a bit less expensive than Napa and many parts of Sonoma, you know, California pinot compared to, you know, other varietals from other countries is still, you know, pretty pricey. And so expanding not only my palate, but also trying to keep money in my walleth.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:07:22]:
Yeah, yeah, that's. It's a very real thing to balance the. The wine you want to drink and the wine you can afford to drink.
Adam McHugh [00:07:27]:
Yeah, for sure.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:07:29]:
All right, so I want to begin before we dive into your book, which we're going to get into blood from a stone, which anybody who has been a regular listener or someone who's watched this podcast, you're going to realize quickly why I so resonate with much of Adam's story. But before we get into that kind of a primer question, I like to ask guests on this that just sets a foundation for us to get to know you a little bit and your more recent journey. The question is this, how has your faith changed over the last ten years?
Adam McHugh [00:08:04]:
Significantly. Although sometimes it's hard to distinguish between how my faith has changed and how my role has changed. So I was a hospice chaplain and ordained PCUSA minister for ten or twelve years until 2013. And so a big part of my story over the last ten years has been sort of unraveling that role and the sort of the leadership that I had in church context, in chaplaincy context, and whatever was sort of what my faith actually is. I mean, when you spend so much time preparing, you know, to express your faith in such a public way and you play that role for so long, it can be really hard to figure out, well, what is my relationship to God or to the universe or to other people when I'm no longer walking in the room and people are saying, shh, the chaplain has arrived, you know? And so that's been a really significant. And, you know, I was grateful for my opportunity to be in hospice, not only because it was meaningful, but because it gave me a lot of language, a sort of grief and doubt, which I've actually been able to apply a lot to this transition that I faced coming out of ministry and sort of that version of me feeling like it was dying and grieving, that loss being real about that, but at the same time, you know, kind of trying to step into something new. So it feels like my faith is actually more open and I would say more simple than it used to be. I'm not engaged in theological debate anymore.
Adam McHugh [00:09:46]:
I feel like, yeah, my faith feels very simple, but very solid at this point, but that has not always been the case over the last ten years.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:54]:
Yeah, that's a great answer. I was a lead pastor for a number of years and then stepped away from that, and I've gone into the wine world in different capacities, and I noticed that there's almost like the role came with a certain obligations, probably too strong of a word, but kind of a sense of, like, I should believe these things, I should, you know, maintain these things. And then what I found is when I stepped away from the role, away from that title of pastor, and I could just explore, what do I really believe? What. What makes the most sense to me? You used the word open. That definitely would be a word I would resonate with. Did you find yourself? Because I think a lot of people have this when they. They had a former identity in the church world of some sort, then they're not, and then they. They change their mind on stuff, and there's almost a panic in that of, like, oh, no, am I.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:45]:
Am I going off the rails? You know? But have. Has there been any topics you're like, yeah, I think about that one differently than I did, or just kind of any generalities you've experienced in that shift?
Adam McHugh [00:10:56]:
I mean, I think, for me, the. The process over these last ten years has really been about bringing my faith out of the skies above me and more sort of into the world around me, I feel like is what's been really important in that development, both in terms of faith, but just in terms of just personal growth as a whole. I moved up to the St. Ines Valley, a couple hours north from where I used to live in the La area. I got into the wine industry, and I encountered all of these people who were not engaged in ivory tower debates, who couldn't tell you anything about historical theological debates, but who really knew the dirt under their feet, and they knew geology, and they knew climate, and they knew farming, and they had dirt under their fingernails, and they were wearing old dirty jeans and old dusty work boots. And. And I think there was a time in my life when I would have viewed that, that world as sort of simple or even small minded. But I think there was something about just kind of trying to find a more embodied faith, a more embodied expression of faith and spirituality that has made me feel like I've become.
Adam McHugh [00:12:11]:
This sounds kind of dramatic, but I feel like I've become so much more human in the last ten years. And then I came out of the ivory tower and I got my hands dirty, and I'm really grateful that I did. And it feels like, you know, it just. It feels like you're stepping right into ancient poetry when you're talking about humans made of dirt. And I feel like I've gotten more in touch with my humanity through this process.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:12:34]:
That's great. You are an incredible writer. This is your third book, if I'm clear on that. And wine is already poetic. I mean, anybody who's enjoyed a good glass knows there's some abstract beauty to it that at best, we're clinging to. We're trying to grab at it. You actually do a great job of putting a lot of words to this and describing it. And that was one part I loved about your book.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:00]:
The other part I just loved was just the rawness of, uh, you tell the good and the bad. This is not a, hey, look how great Adam is. And he's nailed everything he's ever been given. You're very honest about your failure. In fact, I don't even have this in my notes. Just this phrase just stuck with me so much in the book. You have this line that I think has kind of become a famous line of, you're doing the night shift hospice. Not just hospice work.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:28]:
Hospice night shift. And then I think your phrase is, I was the grim Reapers. Wingman or something like that, that. I remember reading that and literally laughing out loud like, that sounds like the worst job ever, you know what I mean? Before we even get into my real question, how do you say yes to that job? I mean, that sounds awful.
Adam McHugh [00:13:49]:
Yeah. I mean, it was a tumultuous journey, to say the least. The world of chaplaincy was never what I intended when I went to grad school and went through the ordination process. But in order to get ordained in my denomination at the time in the Presbyterian church USA, I had to do something called a CPE, clinical pastoral education, where I had to be a chaplain at, like, a hospital or some other facility. And so. And I put it off as long as I could. I dreaded it so much. I was always wanting to be an intellectual.
Adam McHugh [00:14:21]:
I always wanted to teach, and. But I had to do that. And so I ended up doing four months as a hospital internship at St. Joseph's Hospital in the city of Orange, California. And that just opened my world in so many ways. And it made me. It makes you reflect. Not only does it put you in, like, the oncology floor and the dialysis center with all of these.
Adam McHugh [00:14:42]:
These people that are going through major crises in their lives, but it also has this program where you have to reflect on why you say the things you do or why you act the way you are with particular patients, and you have to write it all out. And then you have this group of people that sit around, like your peers and your mentors, who sit around and critique why you said what you said. It was just brutal. I mean, it was just like the most naked process in the world. But it opened up my world in so many ways. And that's what opened up the door to be a hospice chaplain a few years later. I did not intend to be the graveyard shift hospice chaplain. That was any number of bizarre, economic, personal, you know, like, career type things that led me in that direction.
Adam McHugh [00:15:25]:
But I did that, that particular role for two, a half years. I. And I had a lot of time in the middle of the night to sit around and think about ways to describe my job to people that I tried to find funny because I tried to find humor as much as I could in my life because it was pretty dark on every level. And so the grim Reapers wingman was what I came up with during that time. And I thought that probably should go in a book at some point.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:15:48]:
It's funny you say that because, you know, I've written stuff, too, and I was listening or reading this, and I'm like, there's got to be, the author in you is going, this will be a great story. I mean, because that's the thing I've learned about life, is, you know, the worst stories or the worst experiences make the best stories. And as I was thinking about you going into that, I'm like, I'm sure he thought this is going to be a killer. And here it is. It's, it's come to life, and, you know, years later, we're talking about it. So.
Adam McHugh [00:16:18]:
Oh, yeah. Without, without question, that was probably one of my coping mechanisms through dark periods of ministry in life, is trying to find phrases and ways to tell these stories in ways that would hopefully be a little bit redemptive.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:16:32]:
Yeah, that's great. So in the book, numerous times, you referenced the movie sideways, which is a kind of now is more obscure kind of cult classic wine movie. But that might be a connecting point for some of the listeners who are going, oh, okay, I know that movie. You have this great line in there, and I thought maybe this is a launching point for you to kind of talk about some of the bigger arches in the story in the book. But you say this, Sideways is a movie about a struggling and sardonic writer escaping to wine country from an unsatisfying life in Southern California. It's my life, except the movie has a lot of sex in it, which, I mean, if, if someone didn't want to get your book, there it is. They're like, okay, I like this guy. I'm hooked.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:17:19]:
And let's use that as the launching pad. Kind of tell us a little bit, why do you connect with that movie? Why does that summarize your story a little bit?
Adam McHugh [00:17:28]:
You know, it's really interesting for a lot of people. It's a super obscure indie movie at this point. It's coming up on its 20th anniversary this October. And for where I live in the Santa Ana's Valley, it's like we still live it day after day after day. We get people still to this day from all around the world that come and visit and do what they call the sideways tour, which is visiting all the same wineries and restaurants and spots that they go to in the movie. It's set and filmed in the Sans Valley, and it's pretty remarkable. It's like the south has gone with the wind, and here in the central coast of California, we have sideways. And, and so I'd never heard of the Santa Nez Valley even though I lived, I guess, two and a half hours south in the Pasadena area, 20 years ago.
Adam McHugh [00:18:20]:
I'd never heard of it until I saw that movie. And I had a friend when I was working in hospice, I had a colleague tell me, hey, this movie reminded me a lot of you, like, two sarcastic dudes that are spending the week in wine country and playing golf and hanging out and drinking good wine and eating good food, and they're all, like, super sarcastic. And I was like, sounds amazing. So I went and saw it, and that's when I discovered the Santa Ana's Valley. And I was so it's interesting to think about. I've been. I'm writing an article right now about sort of my sort of a 20 year retrospective on sideways. And it's interesting, though, because I saw that movie 20 years ago when I was in my upper twenties.
Adam McHugh [00:18:58]:
And at the time, it just seemed like this fun, like, wine adventure movie with this, you know, these two funny dudes. And so I was really captivated by the way that they portrayed this region where I now live. So I came and visited, like, two weeks later after I saw that movie. I was so taken by it. But now, 20 years later, you know, when I'm about the same age as the characters in the movie were at the time, it just seems like a really sad movie to me at this point. There's just so much grief and loss and so many questions about the second half of life and. And their mourning, what their expectations had been and how they've been shattered from earlier days and earlier relationships. And so I have a different relationship with that movie now.
Adam McHugh [00:19:40]:
I still love it, but it's like a quieter, like, middle aged kind of love at this point. Your love has matured, so. But, yeah, that's what introduced me to the Santa Dens Valley. And in part, I live here because of that. And then I moved up here right around the 10th anniversary of sideways in 2014, and I got to go to a party, which they did to celebrate ten years. And I met Paul Giamatti there, and I got to tell him, he's the. If you haven't seen the movie, he's the star of that movie. And I got to tell him in person.
Adam McHugh [00:20:14]:
I was so nervous, but I was drinking Pinot, which helped. And he was drinking Pinot as well. I went in there and I told him, like, hey, I. In part, I live here because of this movie right now. I think he was genuinely moved by. It was a pretty cool moment.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:30]:
So do you make Merlot jokes, topology Amati in the. In that setting? Or is that, like, too soon?
Adam McHugh [00:20:37]:
People were making Merlot jokes then. But there was a lot of conversation. And again, if you haven't seen the movie or don't know it well, this won't necessarily track, but there's a line that comes out of nowhere in that movie about how much Miles hates Merlot. And. But there's been a lot of conversation around here. Again, no one else is talking about this, but here we are. And. But at the end of the movie, Miles has this wine that's cab franc and Merlot that he's been saving.
Adam McHugh [00:21:07]:
It's a cheval blanc from the right bank of Bordeaux. And it actually has Merlot in it. And it seems to kind of represent his past life and his past hopes and expectations. And he was saving it as a really special bottle. So the point may be it's not that he hated Merlot as a varietal. It may be that Merlot represented something that he was trying to get away from.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:29]:
That's a hot take on sideways right there. I like that. It reminds me of when you talk to people about tequila, and they say, oh, I can't drink tequila. And then you go, oh, you were 21, huh? And you had a really cheap margarita, and it messed you up. How did you know? It's like, that has represented something for you that is locked in time. Yeah.
Adam McHugh [00:21:51]:
You were pounding Cuervo when you were 20. Right.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:56]:
Okay, so here's another. Another quote that, again, I just. This, like, struck a chord with me as someone who's gone from ministry to wine. You say this when I tell religious types that I used to work in ministry and now I work in wine. I get one of three reactions, and then I'll summarize your three reactions. You say, if I'm talking to a southern Baptist or a Pentecostal, I get squinty eyes and sharp intakes of breathe and pamphlets for healing prayer groups. Signs of the cross while slowly backing away. Okay, love that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:22:30]:
But if I tell the same thing to a Catholic or an Episcopalian, they exclaim, oh, that totally follows. Let me buy you a drink. And then three, if I'm talking to a Presbyterian or a Lutheran, I am awarded a lecture about craft beer, which is just a hilarious way to package all that. I would say one and two are very common reactions I get. You know, it's either. That's the most amazing thing. Let's, you know, let's do an episode of your podcast, and let's. Let's enjoy it, or.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:23:00]:
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. How on earth could you be mixing this? I'm curious, you know, you've you've had some, some time now. I think you said you're going on ten years of being away from that role. Have you noticed any of these reactions changing? Are you changing in the way you respond to them the longer you've been in wine? Or do you feel like that conversation is just stuck in the same, the same rut?
Adam McHugh [00:23:25]:
Oh, that's an interesting question. I mean, it has been eleven years, I guess, now since I was in that role. So it feel, I feel detached enough from that at this point where I don't get the same strong reactions from more evangelical or conservative types that I used to, because it's been so long since I was in that role. But I would say overall it doesn't feel like it's changed all that much. I mean, honestly, like, I lead a lot of wine tours and I'm not leading a lot of Pentecostals on wine tours and so. And if I do, they're very much lapsed Pentecostals. And so the people that I'm interacting with are pretty pro wine for the most part. I live in wine country, and even though some of the locals kind of wish there weren't so many wineries right here because of traffic mostly, you know, I'm not interacting with the same types of people that I used to.
Adam McHugh [00:24:20]:
I'm not getting invited to speak in southern baptist churches, but I never was. You know what I mean?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:24:25]:
That is shocking, really.
Adam McHugh [00:24:28]:
I never was.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:24:29]:
Yeah.
Adam McHugh [00:24:30]:
So, no, and I still, I do feel like Presbyterians and Lutherans are still talking about crap beer. More than. More than one. And that's fine. I have a running joke in the book where I sort of set up a rivalry between people that love wine and people that love beer. It just became a running joke that I kept coming back to. But in truth, I kind of like beer too, so it's cool.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:24:52]:
I found most wine drinkers do. Do enjoy both. But that's. We have to keep that secret, right?
Adam McHugh [00:24:58]:
Yeah. Don't tell anybody.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:25:00]:
Okay. Another quote that I loved. And this is where you start getting a little poetic on us and using some cool language here. The story of wine has always been a resurrection story. It still seems to me a miracle that humans can transform clusters of grapes on the short road to rot or raisin into a liquid that can endure, even improve, for years and years. Yeah, beautifully said. And yes, you're capturing some of just the mystery and the magic of wine. Both you and I have found new life in our careers in the world of wine, out of the world of ministry roles.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:25:42]:
How has wine helped you with your own resurrection story?
Adam McHugh [00:25:46]:
Right. You know, and the truth is, for me, getting. Leaving ministry and getting into wine did not feel like this huge leap. I discovered I loved wine for a long time. My parents loved wine. I always knew wine would be a part of my life. I did not know that I would do it professionally, but it was on a trip to France. And this is the first five chapters of the book, really, is this trip to France I took now, about 15 years ago, that changed my whole relationship to food and wine forever.
Adam McHugh [00:26:16]:
I'd always been a, you know, a delicious beverage for me, but when I was in Paris, but especially in the champagne region for a day and then in the south of France for a week, I saw all the connections that I had never made between wine and culture and history and spirituality that were so present in the old world in France, that, you know, we don't see as much in California or in the United States just because we're a younger country. And it was especially, and this is, I think, chapter five in the book, is this encounter I had in the south of France, in this region called Chateauneuf du Pape, which means new chateau of the pope. And again, I talk all about this, but I had forgotten from my church history classes in seminary that there was a 70 year period where the papal throne had been moved from Rome to Avignon in the south of France in the 13 hundreds. And so new chateau of the pope is referring to that. The papal throne was there, and the pope had a ruined vacation home, like a huge castle that was sitting right there among the vines of Chateauneuf. Tap. And those are where my big revelations happened, that this isn't just a beverage. This is actually an expression of devotion for people.
Adam McHugh [00:27:28]:
This is an expression of spirituality, and that history intersects with food and wine and culture and all of the lives of these people that. That viewed their work in the cellars and in the vineyards as acts of devotion. And so, for me, that's when I kind of realized, oh, I'm on a pilgrimage. I'm not on a vacation. And that's what eventually led me into giving up my official role as pastor and moving into the vines.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:27:54]:
Gosh, you make me want to go travel to that region. I've been to Bordeaux and Paris and Bordeaux, you know, just captured. Captured my heart, but shot Neuf de Pa. Gotta do it. Okay, here's another one. This is. This is a little longer, but again, this is just so good. I couldn't cut this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:14]:
So the more I discover about wine, the more I learn how much it involves hidden mystery. The story of wine is a chain reaction of transformation carried out under a veil. Roots reach for water and nutrient in invisible places. Microscopic yeast lurk in juice, prepared to carry out their work of secret change. Aromatic compounds are hidden in long equations, their wild fragrances masked until yeast break them apart in fermentation. And then they rush for the air in dark bottles. Wine changes and evolves, taking on new textures and flavors that taste like nothing you have ever had. That's always been the nature of sacraments.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:59]:
Hidden mysteries of grace and life squeezed out of ordinary objects. Baskets of bread and goblets of wine, vials of oil and pitchers of water, even rocks can play host to heaven's surprise visits. I mean, that's so good. And the way you're connecting these iconic elements of the faith, sacraments being things like communion, that we say this is how we experience God, especially in formal settings, when we are gathered in that, and there are these physical elements. And I think christians often overlook the simplicity and the beauty of this. And you're calling it out, you're drawing our attention to it. How has this idea of a hidden mystery and this connection with the sacraments shaped your understanding of Christianity?
Adam McHugh [00:29:51]:
Yeah, I mean. I mean, that's a big question. I'm just thinking right now about how the reason why wine throughout, from ancient times was viewed as this gift of the gods was because there was this miraculous element to it. They didn't, you know, and this is before Louis Pasteur came along and kind of ruined it for everybody. But, you know, nobody knew what microbes were back then. I didn't understand that we're all covered in yeasts, and that yeast sit on the grapevines, yeast sit on the grapes, and that if you need dough, that there's yeast in there as well. And it causes dough to rise, and it causes if without any intervention, it causes grape juice to naturally turn into wine. Those yeasts eat the sugars and grapes and convert it into ethanol, alcohol and carbon dioxide, among some other things.
Adam McHugh [00:30:46]:
And so there was not an understanding, you know, of my microbial life at that time. And so that's why wine was viewed as one of the greatest gifts from God. Going back all the way, like 8000 years worth of ancient history takes us all the way back to the Black Sea and into Mesopotamia, into the Levant, into Egypt and all that. And wine became viewed as a gift, not only a gift of God, but actually a representation of the blood or the life of God or of the divine. And I mean, you know, you go back, it's been a central part of religious tables and altars for thousands and thousands of years. And so this idea of sort of mystery being revealed in practical things in Prague and, you know, day to day things. And that's kind of what led me into the, into the dirt of wine country, is realizing that maybe, you know, as I say in the book, maybe one of the best ways to reach heaven is not to, you know, reach for the skies, but to plunge your hands into the dirt. And I think that's been really important for me personally as well as spiritually over the last ten or eleven years.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:31:55]:
And I'm thinking back to college classes where I'd be sitting in seminary and they would talk about gnosticism, which is this idea that everything spiritual, the physical, is evil. And what you're describing really is the, is the antithesis of learning to see the spiritual in the, the physical, which then opens up. This is what's so cool about wine. It's like if you now be with us, if you can learn to connect wine to God and you can see it that way, every glass becomes an invitation to have a spiritual encounter. And you start, you start looking at all these things and go, hey, if you learn how to connect these dots. And that's why, again, yeah, it's not just a beverage, and it's not just a tool to get you drunk. If you're trying to get drunk, there are much easier methods of that.
Adam McHugh [00:32:37]:
Right?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:32:38]:
This is not what this is. And, and I just love the way you're bringing attention to this. And I think people who read the book come away with that sense of like, oh, wow, there's, there's, this is all around me. I can, there's dirt all around me. You know what I mean?
Adam McHugh [00:32:50]:
Yeah, totally agree. And the other part of that too is, I think, community as well. And kind of like the idea of drinking wine and eating around a table of friends and family and, and, and I always feel like even though, you know, we can, I think we can acknowledge like, that there are particular times when, you know, the church has sort of reserved the idea of sacrament for particular times in particular places practiced among particular communities. But it always feels to me like maybe one of the best ways to experience God, whether you're aware of it or not, is to be around a table with good wine and good friends and maybe some acquaintances, people you don't know, uh, with, you know, good simple food. I feel like God really isn't far away from any situation where that is taking place.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:41]:
Amen to that. I clip that. Make that a little social media post right there. I like that. All right, we're going to transition to some questions that I love to ask our guests, and I'm, I'm very interested in your take on these. As someone who's more in the wine world now, but has, has had a foot in the ministry world as well, to transition it, let's just do. This is an easy one. I think you're going to have a killer one.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:34:06]:
And you've mentioned tons in the book. So I'm curious if you're going to bring up one of these or something, something we don't know about. I like to ask people there when they think of, like, the best moment of, like, what was the greatest glass of wine that you had, or just a moment where you thought, this is as good as it gets. This is so incredible. Is there one that, that stands out to you? You've probably had many over your career in your life, but does something come to mind that you go, it was that moment with these people. It was this wine, or what can you tell us about that?
Adam McHugh [00:34:38]:
That's so hard. I mean, there's so many, right? I mean, two immediately popped to mind. I know you asked for one, but I'm giving you two. I love it. And the first one, again goes back to the book. There was this really pivotal meal in my life, sitting in the courtyard of Avignon in the shadow of the poped castle there, just drinking a carafe of rose and eating salad and soise, like in June, back in 2010. And there was just something that was just so powerful about that. And what was so interesting was that I was drinking, like, a wine that probably was five euro at the time.
Adam McHugh [00:35:17]:
There was nothing expensive, probably even nothing special. It was kind of their everyday beverage, especially in the summer months down in the mediterranean area. They drink it like coke down there and. But I was just sitting there eating this incredibly fresh food and drinking this, this rose from the carafe. And I love how they. It's a big caravan. It's like a leader carafe, but the, they mark, they, you take like a Sharpie and they mark where the fill line is to begin with and then they charge you based on how far the line drops. Really?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:35:50]:
That's awesome.
Adam McHugh [00:35:51]:
Throughout the course of the meal, which I think is, like, so imprecise and so hilarious. But I don't think much made it out of that carafe, though. And. But, yeah, that was just when it all intersected for me, and I already talked about that, so I won't go too much into that. But that's what taught me, in terms, just in terms of wine, that so much has to do with the occasion, how you're feeling, who you're with, as much as it has to do with, you know, how much money you spent, a, how, you know, how high the reviews are, that particular wine has gotten, how others have said, this is a, you know, incredible wine, and it has so much to do with how you're feeling and just the occasion. And I honestly think when our brains are sort of relaxed and we're in an enjoyable situation, that it actually, I think it makes, like, wine taste better. And that may even be a scientific thing. And then the other one would be this good, this, you know, fastendez forwards ten years from that, I went through a divorce as one of the big life transitions that I went through again about eleven years ago when my whole world just turned upside down.
Adam McHugh [00:36:56]:
And then about five years after my divorce, I started dating another woman named Kate and proposed to her a couple years after that. We were just having, I just proposed to her like, a few hours before, and I had bought a really special bottle of wine for the occasion. And we were just sitting at a local old steakhouse, like, ranch style steakhouse around here. And it was a chateau Beaucastel, which is a Chateau nuke de pap, which obviously is very special place for me. And it was 2005, so I think it was about 15 years old at that point. And just, again, it was the occasion. It was who you're with, it was the emotions of it all. But that was a really special bottle of wine.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:37:37]:
That's so great. I love those stories. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about.
Adam McHugh [00:37:46]:
You mean about wine or about what.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:37:48]:
This can be wine. This could be about God or life.
Adam McHugh [00:37:53]:
I used to tell people a lot of stuff when I was a hospice chaplain about one of the big, like, axioms of going through grief is that you're already grieving, you're already, your life has changed so much in a major loss that you shouldn't try to change anything else at the time. You should just kind of keep everything else status quo for a while. You shouldn't move, you shouldn't start a new relationship. And that part's probably true, but you definitely shouldn't start a new relationship if you're grieving the end of an old one. But, and I just decided, and then I told people that for ten years, right. Don't change anything. Just stay in your same house. Don't quit your job.
Adam McHugh [00:38:37]:
Like, just, you know, you're going through enough as it is, and it's going to plunge you into deeper depression if you change too much. And. And then I went and lost my. My job as a hospice chaplain. My marriage was really crumbling, and I just said, effort. I'm going to move up to the Santa des Valley and get into the wine industry and just change everything about my life. And I needed that space, that detachment from everything that I had been suffering through and struggling through down. Down south, I think, in order to really kind of regain my footing, but also to really step into the new identity that was slowly taking place for me.
Adam McHugh [00:39:20]:
And so I guess I'm not convinced, you know, as I used to be, that there aren't times in your life when you need to just make radical changes and see what happens.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:39:34]:
Do you feel like your. Your family, your support network, your friends at the time were embracing this change, or they all looked at you like, he's gone off the deep end?
Adam McHugh [00:39:44]:
Yes and no. My parents were pretty supportive, though. I think they were confused as well. And then. I mean, anytime anyone that's been through a divorce knows that some people get particular friends and the other person gets other friends, and no matter sort of how well you try to present it to people and everything. So I definitely lost some friendships through that process. Some of them came back eventually, but there are some that never recovered, and that's okay. That's just, you know, how life changes, I think.
Adam McHugh [00:40:15]:
But I did have the support of a core group of three or four friends, which is what I really needed at the time. And my parents, as confused as they were, I. You know, we're not. We're not, like, judging me or telling me to move back or whatever. They helped me out financially a little bit, and, you know, they always took my phone call when I called, so. So that was important, though. It was a very isolating time. It was.
Adam McHugh [00:40:39]:
It was a very lonely time in a lot of ways. And anyone that reads the book is gonna. It's gonna learn all about that, more than you ever wanted to know. But I. I had to go through that in order to kind of get to where I am now.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:40:52]:
That's just a little bit my own story. That's where I really resonated with it, because I came out of ministry thinking I was going to retire, doing that, and ended up walking away from a role that didn't end well, and then, you know, didn't want to go back into a role that that's all my training had been, all my experience, all my credentials. Like, that's what I'm qualified for. Right. And then realizing I don't want to do this anymore and then pivoting, doing, like, I'm really excited about wine, and I want to explore stuff with wine, and I don't even know what that means. And I live in Arizona, where there's nothing. It's not known for the wine, you know, industry here. And there's definitely been people that are like, oh, he's.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:41:29]:
He's having a crisis. You know, he's. He's having a breakdown. He's. He just wants to drink, and he's trying to, you know, make it sound legitimate. And I think I've been doing it long enough now that I think you were going, okay, it's not just. He wasn't just hitting the booze to, like, deal with it, but there actually is something to that. But I do think it's an interesting.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:41:48]:
It's an interesting pivot that I think people can sometimes have a hard time with, without question.
Adam McHugh [00:41:54]:
And, yeah, now that you're. You're mentioning it, there definitely were some people that thought I was going through some sort of crisis, but they probably just. I think they assumed that I would just sort of move back and apologize to everybody and go back to my previous life. But I knew that was not going to happen. But you're right. The transition, you know, the personal transition for me felt like it took at least three years before I could fully embrace the new world I was living in and the new identity that I had. But I think it took a while for some of my friends and other family members to also embrace that change as well. And we're talking about years, not.
Adam McHugh [00:42:31]:
Not weeks or months, for sure. And for me, it was never about booze. You know, it was never about drinking. It was always about something much, much bigger than that, even though I really probably didn't have the words to describe it back then. But I knew that the life I was living in LA had come to an end and that if I just continued to live there, it would just be kind of living on, you know, the dying fumes of a life. And I just decided I just. I didn't want to be that unhappy anymore, you know? And I think some people felt like maybe that was a little selfish. And probably in some ways, it's some.
Adam McHugh [00:43:10]:
On some level, it was. But to this day, I know it was one of the best decisions I've ever made. In my life.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:43:17]:
That's awesome. What do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
Adam McHugh [00:43:25]:
You know, it's hard for me to answer. It has been eleven years since I was in ministry and, you know, I sort of keep a peripheral relationship to the church around here. And it's a little bit harder for me. Obviously, polarization for not just the church, but just the country as a whole is pretty extreme right now. And I try very hard now not only to stay away from the news, but I try really hard when I meet all these people on wine tours and I'll get people that are from parts of the country that you would sort of assume they have particular banks, particular mindsets. And I try so hard to treat them as human beings and to kind of let them tell me who they are rather than me telling them who they are. And that's been a really fruitful way of approaching it. But yeah, I mean, to say the least, like polarization and sort of the way social media has accentuated all of that feels like it's gotten pretty extreme, but it's kind of, it almost feels so caricatured at this point that I'm not even sure anybody knows who they're talking to or about anymore.
Adam McHugh [00:44:35]:
But when you actually sit down, and this is where I go back to my previous book, the listening Life, that when you actually sit down with people face to face, or even if that's on, you know, social media or through technology, and you have a genuine conversation, you ask questions out of curiosity rather than sort of the intention to judge them for whatever they say. And if you go into a conversation with the intention of saying it's possible, I'm going to have my mind changed through this conversation and that's okay, then it feels like a completely different interaction. And so, you know, sort of that's just on a personal level. But to say the least, I don't think there's a lot of listening happening in the church these days, though. Again, I feel like we're all talking about each other from thousands of miles away, and for all I know there is, you know, I think so much of it just feels like it's gotten caricatured and we're just, we're all fighting against straw man arguments at this point, and I'm not even sure we even really know sort of who the other side is or why we even have another side. Yeah, I don't know, that's sort of rambling, but that's what I'm coming up with right now.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:45:41]:
Do you find that your wine tours, when you have these groups that are all over the place, do you get in a lot of really interesting conversations or do people kind of not really go there sometimes?
Adam McHugh [00:45:52]:
Absolutely. I mean, you got to keep in mind, I'm sitting with, it's a, in some ways, kind of an awkward situation. Usually it works out great. But one of the things I say in the book is that, you know, I leave wine sewers based, the company is based in Santa Barbara. I drive them up to Santa Naz about 45 minutes away, spend the whole day with them, driving them around, drive them back. So it's like asking a couple you just met to go on a six hour road trip. And so it's a potential, it's almost like sort of a first date, like a blind date kind of situation. And so most of the time they go really well, but sometimes they can go, you know, not so well.
Adam McHugh [00:46:24]:
That's rare. But also, the more people drink, the more they talk, and the more personal they get and the more kind of open they become. So usually it's on the drive back to Santa Barbara that, like, the conversations take a little bit of a different turn. And, you know, my job there, I'm not a pastor, I'm not a therapist. And so most of what I'm doing is trying not to drive the car off the side of the road while they're talking to me. But, you know, there are certainly times when the conversation turns a lot more meaningful. And I usually deflect a lot of political conversations as much as I can because it's not my role in that situation. But there are times when I, you know, I had a group from Texas yesterday that drove a bunch of, they drove a bunch of Teslas.
Adam McHugh [00:47:06]:
And I was like, I did not expect you to be really into Ev's. And, and it was like a really interesting conversation. It just, it was another reminder of, like, if you paint a whole state or you paint a whole demographic with the same brush, like, you're not going to learn anything. So. Yeah, I love that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:47:25]:
What's a problem that you're trying to solve?
Adam McHugh [00:47:30]:
I think right now I'm trying to figure out. So more than anything, I view my, my calling as a writer. That's really what I love to do. And obviously, wine has been a central part of my professional career for the last eleven years. It feels like I'm kind of at a point now of wondering what the next steps are for me. I'm not someone that necessarily stays in the same role. You know, obviously, for all. For all of my life, you know, I get kind of restless.
Adam McHugh [00:48:02]:
I feel like I have a little bit of, like, an artist mentality in some ways, that I have this history of getting really into a world, into a community, working in that world, and then writing a book about it. And then pretty much as soon as the book comes out, I start wondering, like, well, is there something else for me? And so I think at this point, I'm kind of wondering what the next steps for me are. I love wine. That has not changed at all. I don't know if I need to be doing this exact role the rest of my life. Life. And I think I'm trying to figure out what comes next for me as a writer. I've written three books that were all published by a christian publisher, though IVP really stretched themselves to publish my third book because there's some salty language in there and some sex jokes, as you told one earlier.
Adam McHugh [00:48:52]:
And so I appreciated their loyalty to me and that, and decided to grow along with me. But I don't know if I have more kind of christian books in me. I'm wondering what comes next at this point. So I'm trying to write some articles for mainstream publications right now about sideways and that sort of thing, and just wondering what's next for me as a writer and in my career.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:49:17]:
So there's nothing officially on the table yet, just kind of exploring?
Adam McHugh [00:49:21]:
Nope. I wrote a children's picture book last summer that I'm trying to find a publisher for the going nowhere. That seems to be a completely oversaturated market. Let's just try something new. That's what I do as a writer. I always just want to keep trying a new genre. Like, you know, my blood from a stone was such a memoir. Like, writing a story was so new for me.
Adam McHugh [00:49:42]:
And then I was like, I want to write a children's book. And now I'm like, maybe I want to write some. A little bit more journalistic articles or for mainline publications and that sort of thing, but I really don't have any other. Any other thoughts beyond that at this point. And that's hard for me to not have, like, the immediate next step. I feel like I've always had that, but I guess I'm just kind of learning to just embrace sort of where I'm at and maybe being in a little bit of an ambiguous zone right now.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:50:08]:
That's great. What's something you're excited about right now?
Adam McHugh [00:50:13]:
I'm excited about the Seattle Mariners.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:50:17]:
Oh, you're a Mariners fan?
Adam McHugh [00:50:19]:
I'm from Seattle. I grew up in Seattle. My connection to my family is very much related to sports up there, so that's why I noticed the Yankees hat. But the Mariners are leading in the AL west right now because Texas and Houston are struggling this year a little bit. So I'm excited about baseball. I love baseball because you don't have to pay attention with such intensity to every game. You can just sort of go in and out for a while and they're so relaxed and spring, and then you get to September and you die with every pitch. But I love early spring and early summer baseball.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:50:53]:
It's a great answer. Any answer on baseball is going to get my heart totally. All right, is there anything else you'd like to add that I have not asked you about? You're like, oh, we got to talk about this.
Adam McHugh [00:51:06]:
So there's a guy in Arizona. What's it. He used to be the singer of, like, tool, right? Oh, Maynard. Maynard. Isn't there, like, a growing wine industry in Arizona?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:16]:
There is down in Wilcox primarily, I think. I think his main tasting room is in Jerome, but he primarily sources his grapes from Wilcox.
Adam McHugh [00:51:26]:
Okay. Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:27]:
As far as I've heard.
Adam McHugh [00:51:28]:
I've heard his name, and I know he's a big champion of Arizona wine, but I've never had. I've never had any Arizona wine.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:35]:
So I'd actually say I've got a few buddies and I've done an episode with Arizona, a winemaker in Wilcox. Wilcox is up and coming. They have. They have started to figure out how to make good wine in Arizona, which, again, is not a. It's not a natural no brainer. They're figuring out, okay, these ones work. Well, these ones don't. And I would say, you know, I remember 510 years ago trying Arizona wines, and I'm like, oh, gosh, this is like drinking like dust.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:52:02]:
I mean, it's just brutal. And now there are some really good ones that I truly enjoy, and I think it's fun to see how that industry is coming. So Maynard is probably the most well known just because the dudes are celebrity and rock star, and he's got tons of money to pour into everything he touches. But the local scene is actually really cool. And I'm curious if you found this in Santa Annez. There's not a sense of competition in that community. They really lock arms together and help each other out. Hey, what's working for you? What's working? You know? And they make the entire region better together.
Adam McHugh [00:52:38]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really want to. I've never tried any Arizona wines, and I'm guessing they don't ship it beyond Arizona at this point, although maybe they do a little bit, but I'd be curious to try them. You know, it sounds like a little bit of a novelty, but then you think about all the really hot parts of the world that actually make world class wines, like Spain and. And, you know, like, it's a Portugal. It's a. It's an interesting idea to me.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:04]:
Yeah. Well, I don't know if you like cigars, but there's. There's one of my friends who makes a wine. He calls it a super bold red. And it. I've told him it's the ultimate cigar wine, because a lot of times you have a cigar, just the wine can't even hang at all. He has one that I'm like, this is the perfect pairing together. If you don't want a whiskey, you want to bring a wine in.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:25]:
It's dialed in. So that's. That's Arizona's claim to fame in my book.
Adam McHugh [00:53:31]:
I do not. I do not smoke cigars. I had a bad experience at a wedding, like, 30 years ago, and that was.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:38]:
That's your tequila. That's your Jose Cuervo.
Adam McHugh [00:53:41]:
I woke up, and I just. My mouth tasted like smoke, and I felt like I was hungover. It had, like, two beers over the course of the wedding, and the cigar is what it to me. So I have not had one since. So sorry to say, I'm always interested in wines that go with cigars.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:56]:
All right, well, we need to figure out a way for. For me to introduce you to some good Arizona wines.
Adam McHugh [00:54:01]:
I would love it. I would love it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:54:03]:
All right, Adam, if people are resonating with this, and they're like, wow, this guy seems interesting. Cool story. How can they find you online? How can they connect with your work?
Adam McHugh [00:54:13]:
I don't have a website anymore, but I do have a Linktree account, but the best way is through Instagram. My account is Adam McHughwine. Pretty easy to find. Or LinkedIn, if you still use LinkedIn. And. Yeah, and then my Instagram account has a link tree in my profile, which will take you to the book page. You can find the book anywhere. It's called blood from a stone, a memoir of how wine brought me back from the dead.
Adam McHugh [00:54:39]:
And you can certainly find that on Amazon anywhere online. You can order it through any local bookstore. And what I'm really loving is I've had now maybe ten groups that have read the book. Most of them are in California. And who have actually come to visit. And I lead wine tours with a company called Coastal Concierge, and you can find that through my link tree as well, or just Google that, based in Santa Barbara. And I've actually taken. It's been really cool.
Adam McHugh [00:55:05]:
I've taken several groups on wine tours that read the book and wanted to visit this place for themselves. And I got to meet them and connect with them, and that was really cool. So I love it when people do that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:55:18]:
That would be really awesome to be able to and for them to say, hey, we just read this. This guy's driving us around this wine country. I mean, what a cool experience. So there you go, guys. Book Adam for your own private wine tour and you'll get the whole sideways effect up close and personal.
Adam McHugh [00:55:36]:
True. It's all true.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:55:38]:
Well, hey, I so appreciate you taking the time from all this, all the stuff you're working on and writing and making and sharing some of this with us. I love, love, love what you share in the book. I hope more people check it out, especially if you're watching or listening to this podcast. This is in the wheelhouse of all the stuff that I'm doing. So this is a natural connection. But thank you again for taking the time today to join us and can't wait for more people to discover your work.
Adam McHugh [00:56:07]:
Work. Totally. Thank you. And I really appreciate the conversation. It was really fun.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:56:11]:
All right, everybody, we will catch you on the next episode of Cabernet and Pray. See you then.
