Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:00]:
Welcome to Cabernet and pray, the podcast where we explore Christianity through the beauty of wine. And this is episode 26, the fear peddlers. This one is going to be fun. I'm going to share a whole bunch of stories that have been swirling around in my mind recently, and I have a feeling this is going to be good news for somebody today.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:02:11]:
I want to begin by talking about the wine that I'm drinking today. It is blistering hot in, in Arizona. If you live somewhere else, you may be experiencing some summer temperatures. I am from Arizona, and I still. I don't like it. I don't like it here. We've been plus 110s every day. And so I'm going to drink my wine accordingly.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:02:32]:
Today, I've got a beautiful 2020 tempranillo rose. It's called domino four from Oregon. Now, what's interesting about rose, and maybe you're thinking this is the time to drink some rose. Rose is made in every major country in the world. In addition, it's made of nearly every grape variety. And so rose is more of a method of making wine than necessarily a wine type, if you will. And so you can make rose wines out of so many different grapes. This is, again, a temper neo grape, which, when it's made into a red wine, is also a wine that I absolutely love this one.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:11]:
For those of you who are only listening to audio of this, let me describe the color of this. It's a beautiful orange color. That's because Rose gets just a little bit of skin contact compared to when you're making a red wine and you get lots of skin contact. Rose just gets a little bit, just usually a few hours. And so this is just a beautiful orange color. And on this one, I'm getting grapefruit, orange peel, rose petal and cherry. It's crisp, it's cold. It is delicious for a summer podcast.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:43]:
So that's, that's what I'm drinking today. So hopefully, if you're not driving or walking or exercising or I don't know what you're doing right now as you're watching or listening to this, but if you're sitting down, maybe with some friends or by yourself, hopefully you have a glass of something great that you get to enjoy with me as well. So, cheers to you. This is what I'm drinking today. Now, I want to share a story that I've been thinking about as I was working on this episode. I was at a social gathering, and I need you to picture this. I'm sitting with people I've never met before. Okay? So this is not uncommon.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:23]:
Lots of us get into these social scenarios. I got invited to this, this kind of party setting, and next to me on the couch is this very outgoing Christian. And then the third person in our conversation was this very tough older gentleman who had been through a lot. And I was kind of a fly on the wall for most of this conversation while the Christian was trying to convert this other guy. Now, again, you got to keep in mind, we didn't know each other prior to this party. I didn't know either of them. They didn't know each other. And so I'm just kind of here along for the ride.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:59]:
Enjoying this and listening to the things that the Christian was saying, trying to get this other guy to convert, I mean, literally on the spot, like, give his life to Jesus. And, and so he, he did an approach that's a very common approach, and you've probably had it done to you or you've heard it done around you, or maybe you've done it yourself because you felt like this is what I, you do if you're a good Christian. But he, he did the whole, do you want to spend your life in hell? Like, do you want to spend your eternity there? Like, you, you've, you've done some things. Now it's time to get right with God. You don't, you don't want to spend eternity in hell. And, friends, when I tell you that this guy didn't care, I mean, he didn't care. Not like he didn't believe that that hell was real. Like, I don't think he thought hell was, you know, make believe or not real.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:48]:
I think he probably thought hell was real. But he was so tough in his life and the things that he had gone through that his basic approach was like, well, I've, I've been through worse than that. I mean, like, that literally was the take. He's, you know, he's, he's kind of approaching. So this Christian is doing everything he can trying to persuade him. Like, hey, man, come on. Like, if you, if you get right with Jesus, you don't have to live, you know, eternity and hell. And this guy's like, starts telling stories of things he's been through and talking about, like, being in the mafia and telling stories of that and getting shot in the butt and having a bullet, you know, I mean, it's like he's, like, telling these stories, and I'm, I'm just kind of fascinated, like, watching all of this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:31]:
Like, here's this christian guy who so badly wants to convert this other guy, and this other guy just isn't there for it, doesn't care, and, you know, nothing is working. So after a little while of this, the Christian is realizing, like, hey, this, this threat of hell isn't effective on this guy. Like, he doesn't care. So I noticed him switch tactics. Like, he literally is like, I've got a pivot. I've got to figure out something else. This isn't working. So then he starts asking this guy, you know, other questions about his life, and he asks him if he's ever been married.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:07:04]:
And again, this gentleman was older, and he said, yeah, he had been married. For numerous years. It was a rough marriage. He had cheated on his wife numerous times, but he loved her, and he. He had this wife, and she had passed away, and he missed her. And. And I could immediately realize this is. This is the next angle, right, this Christian's gonna take.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:07:24]:
And. And sure enough, soon as he heard that and heard that there was some love that this guy had for his deceased wife, he then changed it and said, well, don't you want to see your wife again? And basically made the argument, like, if you want to see her in heaven, like, you're gonna have to get right with her. Wouldn't you want to see her again? And I wouldn't say that this one worked, either. It had, like, a little bit more of a foothold to this guy, and I kid you not, his line that he said, and I just remember this. I was like, you can't make this stuff up. When he asked, don't you want to see your wife again? The guy was basically like, well, we kind of had a rocky marriage. Then he said this, but I would like to make love to her again. Now, he didn't say it as politely as I'm saying it now, but that was the essence of what he was saying.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:15]:
And I just was kind of chuckling. Like, this Christian is trying so hard, and this guy's just. He's comfortable with who he is. He's seen some things, he's done some things, and it just wasn't going anywhere. And so that was the angle for the next however long this conversation took place. You know, just trying to really get this guy to realize, hey, if you want to see your wife again, you got to get, you know, you and Jesus got to get squared away and all this. And. And so we just tried and tried and tried.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:47]:
And the longer this went, the drunker the other guy was getting, because we were all having drinks, and I just watched them like, this is not. This is not going to happen, right? This is not going to happen. And so the guy ends up leaving, and it's just me and this Christian on the couch. And, you know, after he's done, I kind of got him, like, wow, you really, really went for that one. Like, you were really trying hard, you know, to do. To do that and to get this guy to connect again, you know, with his wife. And then he said something that I couldn't believe and has stuck with me without skipping a beat, without any weirdness in what he was saying. Like, these words didn't seem weird to him at all.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:28]:
He said to me, very matter of fact. Well, his wife is in hell, but I'm not going to tell him that. And I sat there just stunned, like, okay, let me unpack that. Number one, you're telling this guy that his wife is in heaven, and you use that as your main motivator to get this guy to convert, to. To get right with Jesus to see his wife again, but you don't even think his wife is going to be in heaven. You use that as manipulation tool, as a lie. And all of this was just to get out of hell. And this arbitrary thing that you are assigning to people without knowing his wife, he didn't know her at all.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:11]:
But you have already assigned her place there and felt pretty confident that's where she is, even though you told this guy the exact opposite. Now, I want to ask you the question. Is this Christianity? Is this what it is to follow after Jesus? More importantly, is this good news? Is this the gospel? Is this the message that we have been given to give the world? Now, if you've had any interaction with Christianity in your life, I suspect you have similar stories of things that were said to you or things that you heard said to people around you, or maybe, again, things that you have said with good intentions. And maybe now you look back and you go, I can't believe I said that. Why? Why do we do this? Why is this so common? Well, I've come to the conclusion that the reason why we use tactics like this, the reason why this is so common, is that we don't think people would follow Jesus otherwise. If we don't scare people, if we don't leverage something, if we don't back you up against a corner, we don't think you'll look at what we believe and say, yes, I want that. I want in on that. And I want to just park there and say, that is fundamentally showing and revealing a problem with our theology.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:11:44]:
This is not a problem of other people. This is a problem for those of us that call ourselves christians. This is a problem with our theology. If our beliefs aren't good enough for someone to choose them without being afraid of the consequences otherwise. Now, let me say this another way, and this is a more positive way to say this. You don't need to scare anyone into believing something beautiful. Say it again. You don't need to scare anyone into believing something beautiful.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:12:23]:
And, friends, I just want to say, I think much of our versions of Christianity have lost the beauty. We've lost the plot, we've lost this compelling story, and we have resorted to these gimmicky arguments and tricks because they work. Now, they didn't work on this guy the night that I'm sharing the story, but a lot of times they do. And perhaps you became a Christian when someone did this type of thing to you and you were so afraid. It works on children. Happens a lot to kids, scare kids as to what will happen if they don't grow up and make good choices. And then it works. And we say, well, this must be the way we should do it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:06]:
And it really reveals, I would suggest, a very small Christianity that we might believe, a very small version of this, and it's not as good as we think it is. It reminds me, I saw a conversation online. I don't know this was Twitter or. Or whatever this was, but it was just a simple back and forth. And some Christian was trying to do this, like, slam dunk moral argument, and they posted this. How do atheists decide between good choices and bad choices? This was like, clearly like, hey, if you don't have God, you can't figure anything out. You know, like, how would atheists do this? And I know that this person probably thought, I like, good luck. Good luck answering this because, you know, we as christians have figured this out.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:57]:
And then I saw the reply, and the reply said this, if you need the threat of eternal punishment to be a good person, you are not a good person. Oh, I love it. I love that answer so much. Look, if your version of being good is only because you're afraid of being punished, you're afraid of the consequences, you may not be the good person that you think you are, and this. This can be a doozy for some people. Now, the topic of hell is a big one, but that's obviously just one fear. One fear amongst many fears. We have no shortage of fears that we use Christianity these days.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:14:48]:
And in fact, in episode 25 of the podcast, I talked to Jordan Hughes, and he's the high proof preacher. That's his social media mantra now. And that's kind of his Persona. He used to be on staff at a church. Now he has become this incredibly successful photographer, and he makes cocktails, and he's become this really kind of a trendsetter in that industry. But we both talked about a fear, and I didn't even realize it till that conversation, till that episode, as Jordan and I were both talking about the fear we had once we had left a church staff, that all of a sudden, the. The support network, the. The safety net, if you will, the.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:15:30]:
The people who were gonna be there for us. We wondered, will they be there for us anymore? And, you know, Jordan had some things in his life that he, after he left the ministry, wondered, how is this going to be different now that I'm no longer on staff? And I've shared in previous episodes some of the things we've gone through with Michelle's health journey. But really wondering, like, hey, now that I'm not, you know, full time employed by a church staff, I don't have that formal community anymore. Will I? Will I still have support when we need it? And I realized this is a fear. And then as we're talking, I thought, where does this fear come from? Well, it comes from the way that we talk about the church, inside the church, right? We talk about how great it is. And this is usually done in a positive sense, like, this is so great. But the implied counter to that is that if you ever leave this, you're on your own. If you ever leave this, you're going to be horribly alone, and you will not have the community, the support that you need.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:16:34]:
And so some people, as they deconstruct or they work through their beliefs, they figure out, hey, this is what used to work for me, and now I've got to figure out something else. There's a fear that goes with that of what kind of a support will I have? What kind of community do I have? Will anybody talk to me? Will I ever have a friend again? And as Jordan and I reflected on that conversation, we realized, no, that's a fear that is created within Christianity that I would say, much like hell isn't a realistic fear the way we use it. I have found incredible community, incredible support outside of being on staff at a church and the formal support that I used to have in that role and in that kind of a community. And yet there's still this perceived fear. If you move too far away from the church, you will die alone on an island. And it's another one of the fears that we have now. There's all sorts of these fears. And the reason why I decided to do a podcast episode on this is because I just kept thinking of fears and hearing about fears, and I thought, let's just talk about it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:17:51]:
What are we so afraid of? What is going on here when it comes to Christianity? Now? To give you another example, this is a conversation I had with someone on Instagram, and someone reached out to me about a totally different fear that had come from Christianity and was working through it. And I want to share some of the highlights. This is not the entire conversation. I'll keep it intentionally vague. I have permission to share this, but I want to share because I thought this is such a great illustration of yet another fear that we, we just get so used to this in Christianity. We just. We are peddlers of fear. And, and this is another example of this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:18:36]:
So someone reached out and said this. I wanted to ask your thoughts on the term unequally yoked. Now, if you grew up in a church, this is, this is a big idea. I'll unpack it, but you may know exactly what they're talking about. I married an agnostic, but always believed he had the heart of Jesus, but was. I always have felt shame or guilt around the fact that he wasn't a Christian. I'm trying to unpack this in a healthier way. The idea of being unequally yoked comes from, you know, passage that Paul says in the New Testament.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:19:08]:
And this idea of, you shouldn't marry a non believer if you're a Christian. And again, this is a fear. Like, if you do this, all sorts of bad things are going to happen. And a lot of times, this is not just like, hey, you know, it's great to find someone who values what you value. It's not said, like, in a positive sense. It's more said as a threat or as a fear. Like, if you are unequally yoked, bad things will happen to you. Like you are just asking for it and into it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:19:35]:
You know, that's kind of the way it was used, especially for this person. Now, whenever I get a question like this, I usually try to get a little bit of clarity because there's always a story behind a question like this. So I said, thanks for reaching out. Can you give me more context around the question? Is there a reason you're processing through this right now? And this? Did someone in the church world make a comment to you? I've done this long enough that usually it's someone made a comment. A Christian, a pastor, a leader, right. Made some comment, instilled some fear, and then this person is left trying to make sense, and they said this. I initially was warned not to date a non believer because we would be doomed, is what I was told. Now, again, notice, this is not like, hey, it'll be easier to have a marriage if you have a line value.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:29]:
No, you will be doomed. Right? This is the idea that came across. This is all fear. And then the passage of unequally yoked comes up at times and makes me second guess my marriage when I know I married an amazing man that may not be a Christian, but treats me like Jesus. Then they said this. I think I'm processing through this right now because I never really healed from all of the shame around the passage. Now, this is what fear produces. It produces shame.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:07]:
It produces all kinds of other things that then we're left to pick up the pieces, right? We're left to go, oh, these are the effects. These are the long term, the residual wounds of fear. Fear is not a neutral tool, if you will, of, oh, he can use fear as long as it leads to good. No, no, fear leaves a byproduct behind. And as this person was expressing, that byproduct was shame. And now, years later into her marriage, is trying to work through the shame that is left over after all of this fear has been used. So I had a different kind of response for her. I said I wouldn't lose any sleep over this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:51]:
Paul explains elsewhere in more practical ways. And then I pointed her to a passage in first corinthians, chapter seven. That whole chapter has a lot to do with this. But verses twelve through 14 in particular say this. If a fellow believer has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to continue living with him, he must not leave her. And if a believing woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to continue living with her, she must not leave him. For the believing wife brings holiness to her marriage, and the believing husband brings holiness to his marriage. Otherwise your children would not be holy.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:22:31]:
But now they are holy, basically. Paul says elsewhere, look, in case you were confused, like, hey, if you are unequally yoked, do not leave it. Like, do not go get a divorce because you are unequally yoked. You are bringing that part into your marriage. Like, you are bringing Jesus and your relationship with Jesus into your marriage to benefit your spouse, to benefit your kids. Like, don't leave them. And Paul's getting very practical in this. So then I followed up with this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:23:03]:
There are plenty of christian men who treat their families in ways that look nothing like Jesus, so your marriage is more equally yoked than theirs. Either way, you shouldn't feel shame over this. And I'd encourage you to instead look for ways for Jesus to show up in unique ways through the both of you. Now, again, just pointing out, hey, there are other passages that would give you a very different impression than that one unequally yoked passage that had been used to create fear and shame in her. And she replied with this, wow, thank you so much for this. Very encouraging words. And I will absolutely carry on with the ways of Jesus and how he shows his love through my marriage. Thanks for all the good news.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:23:56]:
See, that's what happens when you battle this fear, when you face these different fears, when you call them out and say, look, these are not of God. We put a lot of spiritual language behind them. We get really passionate about it. And christians sometimes turn red in the face, they're so passionate about it. But it doesn't make it good news, and it doesn't mean it's of God just because you have a verse behind it, as is the example here, you don't need to scare anyone into believing something beautiful. And, friends, this. This is a simple yet game changing epiphany that if we believe something beautiful, we don't need to scare anyone. I came across this quote from Bishop Gene Robinson.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:24:50]:
I think this is such a good quote. He says, it's funny, isn't it, that you can preach a judgmental and vengeful and angry God and nobody will mind, but you start preaching a God that is too accepting, too loving, too forgiving, too merciful, too kind, and you are in trouble. Isn't that interesting that if I scare you with this perceived view of God, people go, oh, just preaching the truth. Preach it. But if I start to portray Jesus and God is this incredibly good God, people, oh, you're watering it down. You're just telling people what they want to hear. It's almost like we've just come to believe that fear is the game. You have to play it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:25:49]:
And, friends, if we believe something beautiful, you don't need fear. And I don't find fear in what I have experienced with Jesus. So what fears do you live with? What are those fears swirling around in your head, in your world? What emotions are wrapped up? What shame is triggered by the fears in your world? How are those fears shaping what you believe? Well, I believe this about God because I was told if I don't, I'm not a real christian, or if I don't, I'm gonna go to hell. Or if I don't, my marriage is gonna fall apart, or any number of things that. That are behind these fear statements. How much of what you believe is based on fear? And if you could remove the fear behind it, if you could just slowly, systematically peel those layers back and go, okay, I'm just going to look for what is the most true, most compelling, most beautiful thing I can find, and I'm not going to let fear dictate what that is. Would you change your mind? Would you believe something differently. And more importantly, how are your fears shaping what you do? How are they shaping the decisions that you make? How are they shaping the way that you treat people? How are they shaping who you surround yourself with or how you engage with those people? See, so often these fears that we have baked into our religious beliefs, they play out in so many different ways, and we don't realize it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:27:33]:
We don't realize it until you start to just slowly unpack it. Go, hey, maybe. Maybe these fears aren't as noble, aren't as spiritual, aren't as holy, aren't even of God. And maybe I should take a step back and challenge these a little bit. I want to give you a passage today that is such a simple passage. In fact, most of you have probably already heard a part of this. It's a well known idea. But this is something I would just encourage christians who love to peddle fear, who love to be the fear dealer and feel like they have to because it's the right thing to do, and that's how they honor God.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:13]:
I want to just encourage you to stare at these words, and if fear has been used on you and you're working through that, or if you're honest, you just buried those fears down and they're in there somewhere, I want you just to consider the weight of these words. This comes from first John, chapter four, beginning in verse 16, says this, God is love. Oh, you're a hippie, Jeremy. You can't say that. That's so woke. No, that's the New Testament. That's the Bible. God is love.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:53]:
And all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them. So what is it like to be in tune with God? That's when you are living in love, when your life is consistent in loving relationships to those around you and to yourself as well. That's what it means to have God live in us as John says. He says. And as we live in God, our love grows more perfect. Not our ideas, not our theology, not our doctrines, our love. We should be getting better and better at love, so we will not be afraid on the day of judgment. But we can face him with confidence because we live like Jesus here in this world.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:29:45]:
Again, in the context that is to live in love. We love people. We live in loving relationships. That's how we live. That's how we live like Jesus. So when someone tries to scare us, we don't need to be afraid any day of judgment. We don't need to be afraid of any final reckoning. No we live in love.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:30:05]:
And then notice this, such love has no fear because perfect love expels all fear. There can only be room for one. You will either let love dominate or you will let fear dominate. And if you let love dominate, it will expel the fear. That's such a beautiful and powerful idea. And then notice this next line. John says, if we are afraid, it is for fear of punishment. And this shows that we have not fully experienced his perfect love.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:30:52]:
That's such an amazing idea. This may be something you could quote the next time someone tries to scare you of. Create fear in you about. If you don't do this the right way, this is what God's going to do. So, hey, if you're afraid, it's because you're afraid of punishment. All that shows is you've not fully experienced God's perfect love. See, if. If you're afraid, it shows you're worried about all these other things.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:31:21]:
It's not about love. It's not about God anymore. It's this fear of punishment. And sadly, so many Christians, that's all their Christianity is. It's a fear of punishment. So I'll go and do the things that I've got to do. And that's not a game changing version of Christianity for yourself or for any of the people around you. If we are afraid, it's only for fear of punishment.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:31:50]:
Now, one of the things I love, whenever I'm looking at modern day Christianity, I'm trying to make sense of it, and I'm trying to sort through our cultural issues, our cultural baggage. I often look back to the original church and go, okay, how did they figure this out? Now, again, not to emulate them, not to just copy them, but to learn from them. Like, what did they do? Because they faced a really challenging scenario. And that's how this whole thing was birthed. And we were entrusted with this incredible way of life all these thousands of years later because of this original group. And here's one of the observations that I would have in this context. The first christians created a movement because they were inspired, not because they were afraid. I believe the reason Christianity took off was not because they could induce fear better than anyone else, not because they were the ultimate fear peddlers.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:32:50]:
They took off. This whole thing took off because they were inspired by something beautiful, by this compelling story of a God who came to be with us, who reached out to us, who made sure there was never any gap, any distance, that there was nothing that was going to stand between us, that God would go to any lengths for that. Because God is love. And God is inviting us to live in love as we live in God. And we learn how to love better and better and better. And so I want to remind you, you don't need to scare anyone into believing something beautiful. See you on the next episode of Cabernet and pray.
