Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:00]:
Hey, friends, welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray. Today we're exploring a book called the space between us, written by Sarah Bauer Anderson, and Sarah is a native of Washington, DC. She's currently living just north of Atlanta in Roswell, Georgia. She's married to her husband Rodney for 18 years, and they have two boys who are 14 and twelve. The past 20 years, Sarah has worked in church and nonprofit church spaces, predominantly writing, editing, and speaking. She wrote this book, and the subtitle is how Jesus teaches us to live together when politics and religion pulls us apart, which is a very needed subject right now. And in the book, she shares her experience growing up in a politically active and evangelical family as the daughter of a former presidential candidate, which is an interesting story to tell, and how she has navigated her own shifting theological and political views in her family. She is incredibly fun and incredibly thoughtful, and there's so much about her story that I think you will relate with as we get into it in this episode.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:01:15]:
So enjoy episode 29, the space between us. I've never shared this with anybody publicly. There's so many things happen in this conversation right now. Thousand years from now, people are gonna be looking at this podcast thing. So this was the breakthrough. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like, such a hot take. Skip Bayless would have no idea. Stephen A.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:01:39]:
Smith would have no idea what to say. If you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment, resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all. I'm in the camp that God is at. Universe's spirit.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:02:03]:
This is the strangest podcast that I've been on. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second glass, and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. I get a little loopy. It's your fault. You told me to drink it on the show.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:02:18]:
You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:02:22]:
You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together, and I'm here for it. We're gonna sit down at table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:02:33]:
The beauty of Jesus.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:02:35]:
Thank you for the hospitality that this particular podcast provides. Folks like myself and I know others to.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:02:41]:
To be curious around their faith practices.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:02:44]:
I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with drunk history, I thought it's like drunk theology. So I, by the way, drinking this pinot Grigio at 03:00 in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. All right, well, we are super excited to have Sarah Anderson on the podcast with us today. Thanks for joining us, Sarah.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:03:14]:
Thanks for having me. I'm so happy to be here.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:17]:
All right, well, let's begin by talking about some super important stuff, the stuff that we're drinking in our glasses. I'll go first, and then we'll see what. What Sarah's got in her glass as well. Today I'm drinking one of my absolute favorites, and it felt like a good excuse to open this bottle. Uh, this is a 2021, um, archery summit paradox pinot noir from oregon, which is just my. It has my heart, and archery summit is the place. Uh, we're members there, and if I'm in oregon, anywhere near archery summit, I'm going to stop in there. And I've been drinking this for a little bit, getting ready for the podcast, and I'm getting some fruit notes of cranberry and plum.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:03]:
And then this one's got a lot of really interesting, kind of earthy notes. I'm getting mushroom, graphite, and then the longer it's been sitting in my glass, I'm starting to get some potting soil in it. So a little bit literally like that earthy vibe. But I was reading the bottle, sarah, and it made me think of you. So I'm gonna. I don't normally read what's on the bottle, but this was. I thought this was a cool for our conversation today. So this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:27]:
This is called paradox, and then they have this on the back label. A paradox is all about contradictions in archery, it sums up the phenomenon of aiming slightly off center to hit the bullseye. The same can be true of winemaking, so often improved by being a bit unconventional. Hey, I thought, kind of cool, but here's where I went with it, is I thought this was a great segue into the ideas in your book, because I think you're a little unconventional, how you're trying to go about bridging, in particular, a political religious divide that is between us and some would say cannot be bridged. This is hopeless. And you're going after it, and you're going after it, and you're aiming slightly off center with some of your ideas, and I think you're hitting the bullseye. And I'm excited to talk about your ideas today, but I'm getting ahead of myself. We got to hear what's in your glass and what do you.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:05:29]:
I love that. I love that description. That's fantastic. So I've never been compared to a wine bottle description. Thank you. Cheers to you. Okay, so I'm drinking a red blend. And when I was originally, like, when I first started drinking wine, I was only a white wine person.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:05:50]:
And so this was, like, my gateway to red wine was a blend. And this is a conundrum is the name of it. It's from California, and it's a 2021. And I will be honest with you, I don't know a whole lot about wine. This is probably an area where I'm probably the most submissive to my husband is when it comes to wine, I'm like, tell me what to order. Tell me what it tastes like. I'm just going to follow your lead. But it's.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:06:17]:
I do know that I don't like a thin wine. I know I like kind of a rich, more bold, and I feel like this isn't. But it's not bitter. So I love that it kind of has, like, this richness to it, but it kind of, kind of can hold its own. I don't think you need to eat it with anything. Like, you can just sip it and it's. It's our special occasion wine, this. I'll say that it's like the wine we get when we're celebrating.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:06:39]:
And.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:40]:
Yeah, well, I feel super honored that we. We in this podcast made it to your special occasion wine.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:06:46]:
Yes. Yes. Cheers.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:49]:
Cheers to you and to any of our listeners or those watching. If you're joining with us and you have a glass, cheers to you as well. Hopefully you've got something fun. That's awesome. Okay, before we get into your book, I want to ask a question that I love asking our guests. This just kind of helps all of us get a little bit of a gauge for who you are and your journey. As you look at what we'll just say the last ten years. Keep it to a specific window.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:07:19]:
How has your faith changed over the last ten years?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:07:22]:
Yeah, that's a really good question. I would say probably my faith started to really begin to change when I was pregnant with my oldest. So that was more like 15 years ago. But I think that was when I started to become more comfortable with asking some bigger questions around some of the ideas and theologies that had kind of been passed along to me. So ten years specifically, I remember thinking, I've got a almost five year old at this point. He's paying attention to what I'm saying and what I'm teaching in a way that he hasn't before. And how comfortable do I feel kind of passing along some of these ideas now that he's beginning to internalize them in a way that he hadn't before? Um, so I would say the way that my faith has changed in a broad sense, has been kind of really leaning into more mystery and more uncertainty and not seeing that as a bad thing. I am, like, the most enneagram six of sixes that you can imagine.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:08:28]:
And so, yes, the loyalist, but a high security need. And so I feel like with my faith certainty, offered this sense of security in a lot of ways. And there was a sense of control there that I really held onto. And I think once I became a parent and realized how much is out of your control and just in parenting, but also in a lot of other ways, I began to see that there was some freedom in that uncertainty, and there is some freedom in that lack of control. And so if I could describe kind of like an image of my faith changing, I would say it's gone from a closed fist to just kind of opening a little bit more and loosening my grip on some things. And the things that I hold tightly to are just becoming fewer and farther between. Like, I just am finding I don't have the energy for some of the theology that I just was willing to die on before. I just don't do it.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:09:26]:
I'm just not sure it matters anymore is the other piece. So I'm feeling like there's a lot of freedom in that. But, you know, the specific areas I probably found some change in specifically probably would have to do. Moving away from the idea of punitive justice to restorative justice. I didn't even know that there were different ways of understanding justice until these past ten years of seeing justice is not just a punishment or not just kind of like this eye for an eye mentality or separating out and kind of alienation, but looking at justice as something that restores a relationship, and that's a bringing healing and wholeness to something. And seeing God through that lens, not just a punitive God, but a restorative God, I feel like I started to know that there were different atonement theories out there. I've been raised my whole life to hear one kind of atonement theory, penal substitutionary atonement and being like, oh, that's a theory. Like, this isn't the only one.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:10:26]:
There's other options. So that's been really freeing. I've learned more about and leaned more into universal salvation and reconciliation, and that that wasn't something that Rob Bell invented, that this was something early church fathers had talked about, and this was a doctrine that people. It wasn't heresy at the time and kind of leaning into this idea of universal reconciliation and God drawing everybody to himself, leaning into desert fathers, desert mothers, mystics. I started reading, I don't know if you're familiar with Brad Jerzak. He's an author. And I started reading his books, Jesus in a more christlike word and a more christlike way and a more Christ like God, and it changed everything for me. He was traditionally evangelical, and then I think he converted to Eastern Orthodox.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:11:24]:
And because of his books, I started, you know, instagram stalking him, found out that he was president of this university and started taking classes with them. And in the process of getting my masters through his. His university and just being exposed to eastern orthodoxy, like, there's a half of Christianity that exists that I did not know existed, you know, ten years ago, and just feeling like I had been living what I thought was kind of like, in this, the whole of christian Christianity and realizing I was just in this little kind of tributary and that there is so much more out there. And if there's this phrase that I feel like has resurfaced over and over again in the past few years, especially, it's learning that there are so many ways to faithfully follow Jesus and just finding so much freedom and all those different possibilities. So, yeah, I would say I hold a lot less tightly to a lot of things, and I found that I'm drawn more and more to people who aren't necessarily sharing my same beliefs, but whose posture is the same same, and that we could have a completely different worldview on how we see the world or God or, you know, an existence or belief in God, but. But we have a curiosity toward one another. And I think there was a time prior to ten years ago when it would have been much more important to share the beliefs than it would have been our approach to beliefs. So I would say those are probably the biggest kind of benchmarks.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:12:52]:
Faith changes.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:12:54]:
My goodness, that was a great answer. I just am, like, in awe of all that you covered in one question. That's incredible. You are certainly a kindred spirit. Any of the ideas that we talk about on this podcast are right in line with that. And I think that's, it's just a refreshing perspective. And I, this is so great to have this conversation with you because I've been reading your book, and the book is called the space between us. And, you know, it's funny is you talk about growing up in this very conservative home, and, you know, your dad was a republican presidential candidate.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:36]:
And some of the stories, you know, are just things that, like us common folk can't, can't really wrap our heads around. You know, like, I'm reading this going, holy cow, that would be, that would be wild. But I know what it feels like to have parents who are way more conservative than I am. And I know, you know, what it feels like to grow up and, you know, just, just to talk, you know, politics for a second. I grew up, I think, very similar to you. I. Yeah, I thought Republican Party was the only, like, we were the only ones out there, you know, it's like, yeah, other one, like, nobody voted. And, you know, that was kind of like my kid view of the world.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:14:11]:
Like, yeah, all the good ones are republican. And then as I've gotten older, you know, I've, I've changed my view on that and, and explored it differently. And there's just a whole bunch that goes with that. And you do such a great job in this book. And so I'm gonna, I'm just gonna just give a hearty plug the entire podcast for any of our listeners, those watching. This is one of those. You actually wrote this four years ago, and it could have, it could have been written yesterday because it's only intensified. All the ideas you addressed have only intensified.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:14:44]:
None of it has decreased. And it's so good now. I picked a few, a few passages that I want to, things that I, you know, I love reading books when I know I'm going to interview the author because I read it differently, where I'm like, oh, we're going to get, you know, like, that's a brilliant idea. So I feel like I have to start in a certain spot, and you probably understand why. But here's from the book Sarah writes in the story of Jesus's first miracle. I find it interesting that Jesus isn't healing a physical ailment or writing a deformity present since birth. For his first miracle. He's at a party, a wedding, when suddenly the wine runs out.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:15:28]:
Friends, this is what we're here for, to make sure this never happens to no one's life is on the line. Inclusion in the religious community isn't up for grabs, and foundational theological teaching isn't about to be revealed. No. For Jesus's first miracle, it's better than that. Then you say this. Jesus turns the water into wine because of what it means for the party, because that's what food and drink do. It's what they've always done. They remember, they close space.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:16:00]:
They make better. Now, I feel professionally obligated to point out this passage on a podcast called Cabernet and Bray. So that's my professional duty. I want to hear from you. You have clearly lived in this space, this in between space. Talk to us more about the power of food and drink to aid us in bridging the divide between us.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:16:28]:
Yeah, well, I think we've heard alcohol, especially referred to as, like, a social lubricant. Right. And I think there's something to that. There is something to this. A little bit of letting our guards down a little bit and kind of engaging in a conversation in a way and being able to talk about things that maybe we wouldn't otherwise. I know that in my book, I talk about we're not as much a wine family in my family, but we are Manhattan drinkers, and my dad has a Manhattan recipe. And so for me and my family and our experience, so many good memories revolve around the pouring of the Manhattans when we all get together for Christmas, or we all go out to dinner when it's all the grown up adult night out. And there's something that's familiar about it that's just.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:17:13]:
I think there's something to the tradition and the consistency around the shared drink that I think is really important. But I also. I think it's one of those things that there's probably a scientific reason to it, but I don't know that it's as important to know why it's like that as much as it is to realize it is like that and to recognize when people come around a table, something happens. Right. And I think it could be something as basic as it reveals our humanity. Right. I mean, there is something about coming around the table and eating and drinking together that is a great equalizer because it doesn't matter. Your economic status, your gender, your political party, your financial bracket, your ethnicity.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:17:55]:
Everybody needs to eat and drink. Everybody needs food. Everybody needs water. This is as basic as our humanity gets. And so I think there's something symbolic in all of us coming together and being like, you don't ever age out of this need. You don't ever become wealthy enough or you don't need this anymore. It's like we all need this sustenance. And so I think there is an equalizer to that.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:18:16]:
I think when you come around good food, there's something about a shared experience and kind of engaging all of your senses that makes it a more memorable experience. It's a more holistic experience when you've got all these things kind of going on at the same time. But I just know that there's something really powerful that happens. And science has shown that they consider families that eat together on a regular basis. I consider that a keystone habit, that that is literally a habit that ends up overflowing into other areas of your life as a parent and your life with your kids and makes them better. And I don't know why that's true, but it's true. So, to me, I just think my life is more enriched by the conversations and the intentionality that happen when you're gathered around a shared space. And I don't know which came first, if it was the science or the symbolism with Jesus in the last Supper and the wedding feast and the banquets, but I just know that they're tracking with each other.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:19:15]:
Science is saying something is true, and I think our faith is saying something that's true, and I think we've lived that. It's true that there's something about food and drink that that's magical.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:19:26]:
You talk about this so strongly in your book, and I had to chuckle because. And I don't remember how you worded it, but you made some comment like, my dad would like to go on record saying, I'm overplaying the Manhattans or something like that. Wants to just downplay this a little bit. Like, maybe I'm exact. That's so good. When you're like, no, this was such a big deal for us. It has a. Come on.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:19:48]:
It wasn't.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:19:50]:
Well, he has a lot of conservative christian donors who don't drink, so we've got to make sure that this is not. This is not the keystone to our family.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:00]:
Well, I actually applaud you and him because you kind of outed him as a drinker, and so you know how much he drinks.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:20:09]:
We can.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:10]:
We can, I guess, debate. Definitely. You know that he drinks, so kudos to both of you for, uh, for being willing to talk about that.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:20:17]:
That's right.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:20]:
Okay. You have another idea?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:20:21]:
That.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:21]:
That I loved you. You said, I've learned that one of the trickiest things about becoming an adult is learning how to bring my adult self into childhood relationships or of having to, quote, reintroduce myself to everyone I know in, quote, as Lauryn Hill said, my family of origin in particular, I think this is so great. This is why I love asking people the ten year question, right? Because none of us are static. None of us, we just were born with all the right opinions and all the right ideas and everything. We are in progress. And that's messy, right? And when it's your spirituality and your beliefs about God that you're working through and you're changing, it's not just a journey for you, it's a journey for everyone around you who knows you. Or as you're referencing who knew the old you, right? Like you used to believe this and you used to teach this and used to agree with this. And then as you're on this journey, go, I don't believe that anymore.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:20]:
I don't see it that way anymore. And, you know, you didn't reference this particular. But I think about the people in the deconstructing community, you know, who a lot of those are people that I'm in that circle a lot. And, you know, it's almost like, well, their family and their friends look at them like you chose this, you know, for fun. Like you, you have your hobby and they're like, no, I can't believe what I used to believe. You know? And so there's this idea of having to reintroduce myself. How have you learned how to do that? You seem like you have a really good ability to change what you believe, things that, in your own journey, but then to not let that alienate yourself from your family, from your friends. What are some, some things you've learned in doing that?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:22:06]:
Well, I wouldn't say I've done it well, I've done it and doing it, but I think it's important to know that some of us go through this in more dramatic ways than others, but all of us go through this. I mean, there is something about becoming an adult where you have to kind of disassociate yourself from the person you were in your 1st 18 years of life in your parents home or whatever that that situation was. And just realizing everybody's starting to see each other as we aren't going to stay who we were for that time period. And realizing every time you go home, you're having to fight falling back into old patterns and old roles and labels and that sort of thing. So we've all done it. I think everybody deserves a toast to that who's managed to navigate that, that change. But I think it is particularly challenging when it comes to politics and religion because those are identity pieces. And I think so many of us, when we grew up in families where politics and religion was important, they shaped who we were, how we saw ourselves and how other people saw us.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:23:16]:
And so to change that is to change something foundational to you. So I think one of the first things we have to do, and I feel like I had to do, was really just learn how to not just reintroduce myself to my family and people who knew me. One way I had to reintroduce myself to myself. Right. To change my theology, to change my political ideas is to shed a skin. And there is raw skin underneath that that needs some toughening up, that needs some adaptability and learning how to live in again. And I think we do our families and our relationships a disservice when we put the pressure on them to accept us, who we are as. As we are and who we are without having first done the work ourselves to be like, am I fully embodied in this new identity? Am I accepting of myself? Or am I outsourcing this acceptance and counting on somebody else to provide for me when it's not actually their job to do? It's not up to them to provide the acceptance that I need for myself.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:24:20]:
Do I accept who this is? Do I understand who I am now? So I think that's been the first step of really leaning into this identity and unapologetically being like, okay, this is who I am. And when I come to terms with who I am, I don't need others to confirm or accept or endorse who I am. That's first. That's an internal job first. So I think that's really important. I think that's the first part of it. Honestly, this is probably a terrible answer. But I live in Georgia.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:24:51]:
My entire family still lives in the DC area. And I think there is a gift to the physical distance. And I don't mean that in a bad way. I just mean that there was a very tangible separating out, and I left home and started a family somewhere else. And so when I come back, it is like a reintroduction to me every time I come home. And I think that families that stay closer together, that's harder to do. And I'm not saying one way is better than the other. I'm just saying that's a reality that I've experienced, that having that physical distance allows that reintroduction to be to come more easily.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:25:27]:
But I think just practically speaking, I think the best thing that we can do is not to approach it from a posture of superiority or authority and be like, well, this is who I am now. And why aren't you interested? Or why aren't you accepting of this? But to continue to have that mindset of growth like you're talking about, like, who we were ten years ago isn't who we are today. Well, who we are going to be ten years from now isn't who we are today. So being able to approach us and be like, you know what this is? I've kind of started thinking about this. I've kind of started to lean in this direction, and it's curious to me, or I've just started to wonder and to use these more open ended phrases, these invitations for conversation, instead of these declarative sentences that say, this is who I am. Are you take me or leave me. It's more like I'm kind of exploring this. I'm kind of leaning into this.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:26:16]:
And what do you think about this? And leaving that space for engagement and not just kind of teaching at and talking to but engaging with.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:26:27]:
So if someone is listening to this and they're like, man, I just can't seem to make it work with my family. They need to move is what you're saying.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:26:35]:
That's 100%. You got it. I think you're there.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:26:41]:
You got to get out of town. You just got to get away.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:26:45]:
You heard it here first.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:26:47]:
Oh, that's great. No, and I think, you know, that's what's so great in the book is you do talk about the way your family has navigated this, and that's one of those, I just think so many people resonate with that of like, oh, yeah, we have some of this in our family. And certainly there are families that do it well and seem to navigate it and stay connected, and then there's others that's like, we, we don't know how to do this and we don't know how to navigate this well. And this has, you know, created a rift. And I think those are some of the saddest stories I hear from people who, you know, like, I haven't talked to my parents in a year, you know, and just some divides that just get created.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:27:24]:
And it's like, yeah, and I think it's important to know when it comes to this, these relationships, it is a two way street, right? Like, you can be doing all the right things. And if you are wanting to engage in a dialogue and the other person's wanting to engage in a debate, like, you're just, it's not gonna work out. And so I think there really is something to feeling of freedom and to be like, you do your part, you keep your side of the street clean. You do. You make the move that you can make. But knowing that relationship really is about this, this give and take in this back and forth. And. And I'm not saying that that means that any relationship is beyond repair, but it is so helpful when you've got the willing parties already involved.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:28:06]:
Right. You're not having to reengage somebody.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:09]:
Okay. So when you look at, like, with your relationship with your parents, did you ever have seasons where it felt like this isn't going to work, and then something happened. You guys got over it, or there was a breakthrough, or I. Has it always kind of been a study? We're navigating it?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:28:24]:
I would say there have definitely been seasons where the specifics of certain politics, certain political issues, or certain political figures is off the table. And it wasn't a deliberate conversation of, like, hey, we can't talk about this. For me, I've just started to pay more attention to my physical reaction to certain conversations and topics coming up. And if I feel myself getting riled up, and I know neither one of us is coming at this from a posture of curiosity and actually wanting to understand that this is going to escalate into more, like, debate style, then it's not worth it, because nobody here is going to actually change their minds based off of something one of us has said. But the conversations that go the best are the ones when there, it's. There's question asking. I mean, I'll never forget. I didn't put this in the book, I don't think.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:29:20]:
But this is such a small thing. But it may have been for the 2020 election. My dad knew that I was not thrilled with the Republican nominee and a lot of the things happening in the Republican Party, and all he did was say, well, I'd love to know, who are the Democrats that interest you? This was still in the primary season. Who are you drawn to and what are the things that they're talking about that you like? And it wasn't like a judgmental. It was like a genuine curiosity, and I will never forget it. And I know that is so small, but you have to understand that coming from my dad, who has been a card carrying republican, like you said, ran for the republican nominee for president in 2000, I mean, this is in his blood. And for him to even be able to say, I'd love to know what about the Democrats interest you because you're my. That makes such a difference in how the dialogue happens.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:30:15]:
But, yes, there are definitely times where I can tell we're. This is a debate. This is not a conversation. And so I'm not interested in having a debate. If it's not going to help me understand you better, if it's not going to help me understand your positions better, then I'm not sure anybody's winning in this. And so I think it's. I think we need to be willing to say we don't conversations doesn't mean we say yes to every conversation. It means we've got to pay attention to, where are we emotionally? Where are we relationally? Is this actually strengthening the relationship, or is this causing potential harm? And just know it's a boundary, really.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:30:54]:
It's saying, we're not saying we have to talk about this all the time, every time. But when. When is this helpful and when is it not? So, yeah, there's definitely been times when that's been off the top table.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:31:03]:
My. My wife and I are both enneagram eight, which is, okay, it's unique marriage, and which means, you know, we're the challenge. So we're very comfortable in a conversation going into the danger, you know, of. That's just the way we're wired. And one of the things that we've had to learn and kind of some of our terminology, even though this is an ironic image, because I'm very committed to nonviolence, however, I use image. You have so many bullets in your gun, so you can't fire everything. And you pick. You pick the bullets and you go, this bullet is really important to me.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:31:41]:
You know, not. Not a literal bullet, but an idea, like, this thing I've got. And, you know what means I'm gonna let that one go. And just that. That tension of, you don't want to have a gun that just clicks because you have nothing left, you know, to use. There's nothing left to engage in because you fired every single thing you had. And we have to kind of remind each other, like, all right, we don't need to fight that one. Let's let that one go.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:32:06]:
And so I think it's encouraging to hear your story of, like, yeah, there's times, you know, and also just, you know, kudos to your dad for being willing to ask a curious question, like, what a great reminder to all of us.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:32:20]:
I love that analogy. I feel like I've heard it said also, when every hill is a hill to die on, none of them are right. Like, you can't. You start to lose your effectiveness and your power persuasion when every issue is the most important issue. Right. And so it's exactly what you're saying. It's like, save it for the stuff that matters, because then you start to become white noise otherwise, and you really lose your influence. So I think that takes a lot of wisdom and a lot of self control.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:32:50]:
And again, being able to read the room, read the emotional temperature coming from the other person, your own. I mean, it is a dance, but.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:32:57]:
It'S how many Manhattans you've had. I mean, there's a lot of variables.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:33:01]:
That's right. Because there's a sweet spot. What Manhattan would be good. But after that. No.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:09]:
Yeah, no, I usually. I usually, you know, make everything good with. Just bring a really nice bottle of wine and everybody chill out, you know?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:33:17]:
Yes.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:18]:
Conversation.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:33:20]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:21]:
All right, let's get into another idea that I loved. You say, I think we are where we are in this fractious era because at some point, we started believing that talking about politics and religion is uncomfortable, and uncomfortable things ought to be avoided. As a result, the muscle used to debate, kindly speak openly, and converse respectfully has atrophied. We've forgotten how. Couple that with a low tolerance for innocent misspeaking, naive ignorance, and divergent thinking, and it's no wonder we've arrived where we have. We are the product of our own unwillingness to talk about tough topics well, and our choice to deal with it all by avoiding it. I love the metaphor here of the atrophied muscle that we all have the muscle and we've collectively decided not to use it, and this muscle has shrunk, and we're kind of deformed looking. How do we hit the gym and get this muscle back?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:34:24]:
Yeah, I think it needs to go back even further than just learning how to talk about uncomfortable things. I think it needs to go back to our. The only way that we've seen politics talked about, especially since 2016, I don't think it was always this way, but especially since 2016, is in debate mode and is a character attack, and it is labels, and it is the most base way of interacting around politics. So it's not just that we don't want to talk about uncomfortable things. What we're witnessing and how our leaders are talking about it is super unhealthy. So we're not. We don't have a good example of what this looks like. So I think for me, it's understanding that there's a different way to do it than maybe what we've observed.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:35:10]:
First of all, I think the other thing is changing the objective. I think I kind of alluded to this earlier, but if our objective in these conversations around politics is to change somebody's mind, then we're playing a losing game. Like, very rarely are we going to present any kind of a fact or any kind of emotional argument where at the end the person on the other side goes, you know, you're right, I actually am not going to vote that way anymore. Thanks. Like that. That so rarely happens. So, like, we need to take that off the table. That's like out of our pay grade to try to convince somebody to think differently on some things and change the objective to understanding.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:35:48]:
And again, the sense of curiosity and where somebody is coming from and how they arrived at that place, because that you can control, you can't control somebody else changing your mind, but you can control how well you are willing to understand where they landed. And so for me, I think when I think of politics, I think that there's three different approaches we can have to some of these issues and just the topic in general. We can do this debate style where the objective is literally to out argue you and to be the quickest on my feet and to make you look dumb with whatever kind of argument you're presenting. But I'm going to win. That's the objective. And to try to get you to change your mind or look foolish. We can have a discussion which I think is less emotional, but it's more fact based. And it's just kind of like, listen, if you just saw the facts the way that I saw them, then you would change your mind and think the way that I do.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:36:37]:
So I think the objective there is probably more to outsmart or to convince somebody of something different. But the third way, and I think the most effective way where everybody wins, is to have a dialogue. And that's not in a dialogue. I'm not trying to get you to think the way that I think. I'm trying to understand the way you think. So now the responsibility is on me as a listener and not as a talker and trying to argue something in a dialogue. It's this back and forth. It's this dance.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:37:07]:
It's a mutual respect. I'm not trying to make you look dumb. I'm not trying to make you look stupid or feel stupid. I'm trying to understand how you got where you got when it came to your positions. And so I think just understanding these different approaches can change the way that we go at it because I think if we only ever see politics as debate, then there's those of us who, first of all, hate arguing. So we're like, I don't want anything to do with that. That sounds terrible. I'll sound dumb and be out argued every time.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:37:36]:
Those of us who love it but will end up alone because we've isolated all the people who are close to us by the way we debate them. Neither one of those is winning options, right? So I think we have to start looking at this as a way of this mutual give and take this, this back and forth where I am a student of you. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm trying to learn from you are the expert of your opinion and your position. So I want to understand how you got there. And so I think we begin to work that muscle when we begin to see the relationship as the objective and not change. Changing somebody's mind is the objective.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:38:10]:
Okay, so you are making me think of one of my neighbors who, I don't know if I've shared the story in the podcast before, but I'm listening to you talk, and I'm like, having this kind of, like, oh, man. I'm just thinking of this guy. He is probably in his late eighties to nineties. He rides a three will bicycle. Um, I mean, like the slowest bike speed. You see, he's on the sidewalk, and he'll just slowly pedal. And so he goes so slow. I see him all the time in my neighborhood, like, yeah, just because he's not covering ground quickly.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:38:49]:
But I think, good for him. Like, you, you are, you know, eighties, nineties, whatever. I mean, he's, he's an old dude, and he's out there getting some physical exercise. It's great. A few months back, he added two flags to the back of his bike, an american flag and then a Trump flag. And then he added this sign on the back of his bike that said, honk. Something like, honk for a vote for Trump or something. And now I see this guy, and I have a very different reaction to him.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:39:20]:
I'm like, what would possess this Mandev? It's like. And again, I don't, I don't care who you vote for. I'm not putting any candidates anything on my bike. You know, like, I'm like, okay, you can, you can like your candidate, but, like, there's just a level of you're spending probably the last years of your life, like, riding your bike around, trying to get people to honk for this candidate. And I just, I look at that, I'm like, what is going on? But as I'm listening to you, I'm like, you know, the reality is I don't understand him. I don't understand what on earth, you know, is possessing him to do that. And so I'm, like, feeling this, like, sense of conviction of, like, should I go introduce myself? Like, all right, help me understand what's up with the bike? Like, why?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:40:10]:
Yeah, that's.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:40:13]:
You're saying something that in one sense is so simple, like, just try to understand someone. But as you apply it to, like, real life scenarios, you're like, oh, that sounds like the hardest thing in the world.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:40:26]:
Well, and I think it is because of the way that our culture operates. I mean, you know, when it comes to social media, we aren't, our lives are not oriented around dialogue anymore. They're oriented around sound bites. And they're oriented around these really quick labels that we can put, you know, to describe who we are in our bios, and it's not oriented toward the more nuanced explanations of who we are. And so, I mean, it makes sense that this has happened. I think we're, you know, we're responsible, but we're also victims of kind of the time and age that we're living in. So I think it's. It's understandable that we got here.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:41:00]:
I think it's going to take some time to go, to go back and to recalibrate. But I don't, you know, we didn't end up here by accident, though. These. There were certain things created and made that that got us here, and we just, you know, played along with what we were given.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:41:18]:
All right, fine. I'll think about it.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:41:22]:
Bring a glass of wine.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:41:24]:
Oh, man. Yeah, there you go.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:41:26]:
I just bring.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:41:27]:
Hey, you and I need to drink this, and we need to talk, and I. That's great. All right. One more quote from the book that I love. You say maybe one of the biggest tasks before us is to learn to make the distinction between what is different thinking, what is harmful thinking, what is a different value, versus what is outright hate. Peacemaking is possible between two competing ideas, but not between good and evil. And so to be peacemakers, we need to learn to see others who value things differently than we do, who have placed more importance on morality, foundations different from our own, not necessarily as an enemy, but as a different representation of a value we may not prioritize. And in partnering with them, we can begin to create the sort of world we ultimately want to live in now, Sarah, I think this is a fantastic way of thinking.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:42:26]:
This is this person that I'm reacting to. Is this a different way of thinking, or is this harmful thinking? And I think most of us would quickly say it's all harmful, right?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:42:37]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:42:37]:
And, you know, it takes a little bit of, like, okay, slow down, analyze a little bit more, figure out what. What is the harm in it? You know, where do you see the harm? And then maybe open the door that it's just different. It's not necessarily harmful. So I have two questions on this. One. Do you think we often get these confused where we are assuming everything is harmful and maybe it's not, and then how do we better learn to recognize the difference between these types of thinking?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:43:04]:
Yeah. The answer to the first question is yes. I think we do often get it confused. I think the reason for that is it requires, to judge something as harmful requires a lot less mental energy than to engage something that's different and to be able to parse out the nuance and what's good or what's bad or what I agree with or disagree with in a particular idea. So I think we tend to move towards these really kind of polar opposite ideas and mutually exclusive kind of characteristics for these, for these views, because it's easy. And our brains, like, easy. They want a shortcut. So to be able to look at that and be, like, bad and put it in the box and be done is so much easier for us to do.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:43:51]:
And it just requires a lot of mental legwork to look at something as different. I would say, you know, you alluded a little bit to the family you grew up in, and your experience of republican equals Christian. And that was my experience, too. And it took me a very long time to be able to see any kind of democratic policy as different and not just harmful or bad. And the biggest help to me in this was, I mentioned it in the quote that you read was the idea of morality foundations. And I came across this idea, it was several years ago now. But Jonathan Haidt is a social psychologist. He came up with this idea of moral foundations.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:44:29]:
And in his book, the Righteous Mind, he talks about these sort of intuitive ethics that every single one of us is born with. So regardless of your age, your culture, your ethnicity, whatever, you are born with a set of intuitive ethics, and then depending on how you were raised and where you were raised in the culture that you're coming from, certain of those ethics kind of rise to the top and resonate with you more as a person than other ones and he makes the comparison of all these, these moral foundations. I think he talks about either six or seven in his book. These moral foundations are like taste buds. And he says, we're born with the capacity for all of them. But just like a person has a preference for sweet or for salty, we have a preference for these different moral foundations. And he says, the problem is, when it comes to our politics, we don't treat them. We don't treat it like taste buds.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:45:20]:
We treat it like mutually exclusive ideas. But no one's saying, I prefer sweet, so therefore salty things should not exist, right? But that's what we're doing with our politics. We're saying, I believe in these ideals. Therefore the ideals of this party are harmful and bad and they need to go away. And so his point in this book was to look at the two party political system, the United States. He pointed out that for Republicans, there are certain moral foundations that resonated more. They were had to do, I think, with honor and authority, authority and loyalty and maybe a couple of other ones. And that Democrats, there are other moral foundations that resonated with them having to do with compassion, care, and a couple of other ones for them as well.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:46:00]:
And he said, we need all of these. We don't want to live in a world where care and compassion are off the table, and we don't want to live in a world where honor and authority, to a degree, are off the table, that there is a way for all of these to come together and to work in a harmony. And that isn't to say that there isn't going to be tension in which one should take precedence or not, but we have to begin by saying we don't want a world where half of these are gone completely. Like, that's not the ideal. And so the ideal is beginning to figure out what is this dance that we want them all to have with one another, and beginning to recognize the value that these different foundations bring. So when I read that, when I spent more time in this book and kind of researching more of the righteous mind and the morality foundations behind it, I was like, this changes everything. Like, it helps me understand so much more that there's nuance behind all of this and that there is a value add that comes to these moral foundations that might not have. And so what do those things bring to the table? So I think that understanding the moral foundations is helpful.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:47:08]:
It helps me understand how people arrived at the opinions they did. And I think it adds layer of nuance between a way a person votes and my judgment of them. Right. So I think too easily we're saying they voted this way, that's harmful. That makes them a bad person. And I think the moral foundations helps us say, okay, they voted this way. Where did that come from? What moral foundation does that appeal to? And what was their experience that made that moral foundation matter to them? So instead of just connecting one straight line between this was a harmful vote, harmful behavior, harmful person, it's saying, okay, this could be a harmful behavior, but what happened to this person that made them think this was the best option for them? Whatever that vote was, and not just saying, not equating a vote with a bad person, it just allowing that curiosity, again, to kind of go in there. So I think, again, it requires a lot more mental legwork than I think we're willing to do.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:48:10]:
But that nuancet is what's needed, and it's what we're lacking. And I think that's the nuance is where the magic happens and where at least, even if I still don't agree, I can understand where you came from. Most people arrived at the positions they arrived at, either it was handed down to them or something happened that made them think this was the best way forward. And so I don't, I think we've just got to get rid of this immediate judgment. Even if it, even if that vote, even if that position led to a behavior or led to an action that ended up being harmful, that isn't necessarily where it started. The intent wasn't always harmed. So how do we get back to the intent? How do we get back to the moral foundation that set somebody off down this path? And just learning from there, that's so good.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:48:57]:
And, you know, a lot of times we think people just kind of abstractly chose these ideas that look ridiculous to us and we, we don't understand. Maybe there's meeting some need for them or some emotional thing that, you know, that really resonates with them. And again, going back to your earlier point, unless we take the time to understand them, like, why do you like that? And what, what is, you know, interesting about that? We may never connect the dots to go, oh, how did you ever land there? We just look from afar and go, that idea is stupid. You know?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:49:27]:
Yeah. And, and Jonathan Haidt talks about this a lot, and this shows up in a lot of different places. But he, one of the things he says is we tend to think of ourselves as rational creatures. We like to think that we are so well thought out our positions, and we got here, we were so intentional with how we landed, where we did. And he was like, that is not true. We are highly emotional creatures, and that it's our emotions that are driving what we think more than anything else. And so even just knowing that when you go into a debate or you go into a political discussion, where you're like, if I just presented the facts, the facts don't actually have much to do with it. There is an emotional tie to the positions that we hold, specifically when it comes to politics.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:50:05]:
This identity piece, to change your identity is a long, painful process, and people only change what they think when the cost of staying the same is greater than the cost of changing. So there has to be such a big pain point for people to be like, I can't stay believing this way. I have to change. And that takes time. That takes a lot of work. And I think of it sometimes as someone who needs to be in recovery or in rehab. No one's talking somebody else into going to rehab. That person needs to be like, you know what? I think it's time.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:50:42]:
Like, I need to. I need help. But that. That has to be a self realization. And I think it's the same when it comes to changing our minds about our politics and our faith. No one's being talked out of these positions. These are deeply held beliefs that require an internal makeover that we can only do on ourselves.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:02]:
Yeah. Height in that book has this incredible image of an elephant and a writer.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:51:06]:
Yes.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:07]:
You know, we all think it's our intuition that's, I'm gonna choose this. And really, you're sitting on an elephant. That kind of leads you, and then you justify, why am I going this way? I gotta make some smart reason as to why I'm choosing that.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:51:20]:
Yes.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:21]:
Yeah. I remember reading that book, and I was like, oof, that's.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:51:24]:
I know. It was life changing for me. Life changing.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:28]:
That's so good. Okay, we're gonna switch gears a little bit. We're gonna ask you some questions that I love to ask each of our guests to get your take on the world and all things spirituality. And we'll see where this goes. But we're gonna begin by asking you, I love. I love seeing where this question goes. You're on a spiritual podcast where we incorporate wine. So I'm going to ask you if I said to you, I know you're a Manhattan girl, but if I said, do you have, like, a memory of maybe the best glass of wine you've ever had or the best bottle or even just the best setting where you said, we enjoyed wine, and if I said, what was, like, the pinnacle where you go, that was as good as I can ever remember it.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:52:13]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:52:14]:
Is there a memory that comes to mind? Can you paint the picture for us? What? What was it?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:52:18]:
Okay, so I'm gonna go. It was good. It was memorable, but also led to not so great. So I'm gonna take you on a journey.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:52:29]:
This is gonna be cool. I like it.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:52:31]:
So. So my husband and I, we got engaged at a winery in north Georgia.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:52:36]:
Yes. This is already starting off really great.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:52:40]:
So when we were dating, he was a youth pastor and at a church that was non denominational but strongly connected to southern baptist beliefs. And again, we got engaged at this winery in north Georgia. It was wonderful. Shared this bottle of wine. And then afterwards, we were calling all of our friends and family and telling everybody, and he called one of his best friends, Brent, who was on a mission strip at the time with the lead pastor. And Rodney was telling me, Brent was like, oh, my gosh, tell me, how'd you do? Like, oh, my gosh, tell me everything. So Rodney, not knowing he was on speakerphone, goes on to tell the story of everything. We were at this whiner.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:53:21]:
It was beautiful. It was amazing. Hey, maybe keep that part under wraps, because I know some of the pastors, like, don't drink, and they don't love that, you know, to yourself. He's like, cool, cool. Not realizing he was on speaker, the mission strip ends. They come back, lead pastors back in the office, calls Rodney, and he's like, hey, congratulations. Yeah, yeah, that's good. Yeah.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:53:42]:
So you got engaged at a winery? Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, you're not allowed to drink here as a pastor. And Rodney was like, I actually didn't know that. I mean, I knew you guys didn't drink, but I didn't know this was, like, a rule. Like, we couldn't drink. He's like, yeah, and if I find out you're drinking again, you're fired. He's like, okay, well, what about the wedding? No. Okay, it's.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:54:03]:
The wedding's in Virginia. Like, there's no opportunity of running into anybody. Like, you're not going to see anybody there. And he's like, no, if I find out you drank again, you're fired. And so we call my parents, and we're like, hey, I don't think we can have alcohol at the wedding. Like, Rodney could lose his job. And my parents were like, well, we didn't take that job, and we like to drink, and our parents or our friends like to drink, and we're paying for the wedding, so we'll get you a nice cup of sparkling apple juice, and we'll have wine at our wedding. So the last glass of wine we had in that season was at our engagement.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:54:37]:
And then it was another four years of no alcohol, no wine, nothing until Rodney left that job. And I will say the best glass of wine was the weekend he resigned from that church. And we happened to fall over our wedding anniversary weekend. So we planned a weekend to Athens, Georgia, where the University of Georgia is the adorable little college town, and had a bottle of wine, and that glass had some notes of freedom in it. Really came strong. So we love to tell that story of, like, we inadvertently had our last battle bottle of wine for a season when we got engaged and almost were unemployed as a result.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:55:24]:
That is a great story. I have asked that question and gotten a lot of different responses, and yours is right up there at the top. That is a great, great answer. Wow. Okay. So now I call this a speed round.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:55:44]:
Okay.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:55:45]:
These won't be as long of answers, but just kind of like your take on a variety of things. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:55:56]:
Okay. Okay. I would say it's exposure to different thinking. The fear that it was a slippery slope, that if you read this, there was no telling where you could end up. And even more so, not just, like, big difference, like reading an atheist, but like a wolf in sheep's clothing. So it'd be like reading a progressive Christian and being like, they're deceiving you. So I. It was just kind of like, you know, I just wanted to be careful.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:56:25]:
I was only reading people in my evangelical lane, and I don't remember. I think maybe Donald Miller was the first. Kind of, like, little bit of a.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:56:32]:
Turnout back in the day.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:56:34]:
Yes, exactly. Where he talks about being a Democrat. And I was like, whoa, hold up. I don't know about this, but, yeah, it was that exposure to difference. I was kind of like, oh, gosh, this not only exposes me to things that I may have gotten wrong, it sharpens my critical thinking for why I think the way that I do think about other things. And, yeah, got that way wrong.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:56:53]:
Yeah, I remember blue, like jazz when they came out. That was that. You talk about a gateway drug that for a lot of us was like, wait a minute. I know there's a better way.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:57:07]:
Like, yeah, yeah. Turns out there is, and it's awesome.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:11]:
I get emails. Not as much anymore in this season of life. But still so regularly where someone will. Will be concerned about either someone I've quoted or someone I had on the podcast or a book I recommended. And it's this. It's exactly what you're describing of if you start entertaining those ideas, you're going down the road. And I just. I always say back to him, like, I just don't live in this world anymore.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:40]:
Like, it's small. It's so fear based. Like, yes. Don't need to be afraid of good ideas.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:57:48]:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah, you nailed it. The fear base. That's real.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:53]:
What do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:57:59]:
You said these were going to be faster answers shorter.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:58:03]:
I'm like, I don't know that we did on the other questions.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:58:07]:
Okay. I think. I think the. The biggest issue is probably the allure of power that is facing Christianity as a. As a religion as a whole, and just kind of its access to power and the allure of money. And I would say, obviously, this looks more. This probably tends more on the republican side right now than christian nationalism, but I would say that this is a temptation on both sides. And I think it's just something to be wary of.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:58:39]:
And, you know, it's the same thing that I think, obviously, this is a huge generalized statement, but when you saw Christianity become the religion of the roman empire, it changed things. Right. And so when you see Christianity kind of be co opted by a government or by a country, I think there's just a lot to be wary of. So I would say just the allure of power, influence, money, and everything that comes with that, but less on the political side. I would say this thinking, this us versus them thinking and this purity thinking around our parties and our theologies. And I see very little room right now on both sides of the theological spectrum for people and process. And that worries me. I think of the things that I have changed my mind about theologically and politically, but specifically theologically, they were not decisions I made overnight.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [00:59:35]:
And it feels more and more like people are saying, you're either with me or you're not, and you need to be with me on this issue or you're out. And there's fewer and fewer spaces for people who are in process and trying to figure that out and for people who are willing to engage in those conversations with those who haven't quite arrived on some issues. And so I think that that worries me a little bit. It's the ideological purity that is coming from both ends of the political or the theological spectrum. I think in Christianity and just not a lot of room for growth and movement on a spectrum and really overemphasizing destination when it comes to our faith. Landing at a certain theology as opposed to beginning the journey, asking the question, having the curiosity and the humility to begin to embark on something, who knows where it'll take them? But I wish. I want to see more spaces where people in progress and in process are welcomed.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:00:38]:
That's cool. What's something that's blowing your mind right now?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:00:44]:
Okay, I'm going to get this wrong because I just started learning about it, so it's a lot bigger than I'm sure I'm going to be able to capture it. So I'm just going to tell people, just google this on your own. Don't take my word for it. Something that I've just started learning about that is blowing my mind is this thing called the trauma triangle. Have you heard of this?
Jeremy Jernigan [01:01:03]:
I have not.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:01:04]:
Okay, it's trauma drama triangle. But the idea is that in every conflict that we're a part of, there are three roles that we kind of bounce between and the other person bounces between, and it's the role of perpetrator, victim and rescuer. And it kind of comes back from, like, unhealed, you know, kind of wounds, childhood stuff that we end up reenacting in our current relationships and conflicts and that sort of thing. And I feel like it's one of those things, like, like when you first learn the Enneagram, you're like, all I can see is people's numbers. You're like, oh, my gosh, this person is a total. This, like, it's everywhere, right? And I feel like I learned this kind of, this triangle, and I see it everywhere. And I feel like I see it in my relationship with my husband, relationship with my kids, work relationship, church dynamics. I just feel like I see these roles played out in a way that I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is everywhere.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:02:00]:
And what does it take for us to get out of the drama loop and stop identifying, you know, self identifying with these roles and be able to see ourselves outside of it? And I think it, the part that blew my mind was the way I started to see this show up in our politics. I was watching these political ads and I'm like, okay, the other side's the perpetrator, we're the victims, and this candidate is our rescuer. And I just saw it over and over and over again. So I just. I think it's just been this idea of like, oh, my gosh. This is playing out in every aspect of our lives. And I think if we can become aware of it playing out in our personal relationships, larger relationships, whatever, we can begin to move ourselves outside of it and stop being played by it. So that's blowing my mind.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:47]:
The trauma triangle, look it up.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:02:50]:
Don't take my word for it.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:52]:
I love new ideas. Okay. What is a problem that you're trying to solve?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:02:58]:
Okay, all right, this one. Okay, I want to back up just a second. So when I talked about in the beginning things that I changed my mind about ten in the past ten years, punitive justice was one of them. And the idea of restorative justice. I was listening to your podcast several weeks ago with, I can't remember her name. Now I want to say Mina Marie Brown. I can't remember the author. Anyway, she was talking about punitive justice and restorative justice, and then she talked about the idea of transformative justice, and she was saying, your punitive justice is punishment oriented.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:03:35]:
Restorative is making things go back to how they were. But sometimes the situation that circumstances that were in play when the harm was caused are not worth returning to. So we need to transform them. Not go back and restore, but transform them. So I was listening to that, and I was thinking about all of these people in my own family as well, where we saw relationships change in 2016 and 2020. And I think for a lot of us, we thought, this is a blip on the radar. This is kind of like a detour. We'll be able to get back on track.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:04:09]:
And here we are in 2024, where up until a couple of weeks ago, we were having a total replay of 2020. Same candidates, same everything being like, oh, my gosh, maybe this is just the new reality. Our politics is toxic. Our conversations around it are toxic. This isn't just a detour. This could be the path we're on. And so the problem that I found myself trying to solve is, what does it look like if restoring these relationships is off the table? Is there a way to transform these relationships? Because I don't think we can go back for some of us, to what we were before. I think in some cases, I don't know that it's healthy to go back.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:04:51]:
I think boundaries are probably more important now than they've been before and how we engage. And so what does it look like as a Jesus follower to transform a relationship where maybe peace is off the table for the time being? And so I feel like restorative involves two equal and willing parties to make things right? And I'm wondering if transformative is saying maybe both parties don't want it to be right. Maybe I do. What can I do to do my part to transform my view of this relationship, my view of this person, and what's a way to faithfully do that? That is pursuing peace externally, but maybe even more importantly, internally, and how I view this relationship and just trying to figure out what is. What is. What does that look like in faith? You know, is it a cop out? Is there a way to faithfully do that and to kind of live in a disjointed, kind of broken relationship that is different than it was before and may not ever go back to the way it was, like, just trying to figure out a way to faithfully follow Jesus when. When there's a lot on the line and there's a lot of brokenness.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:06:04]:
Yeah, I love that. That's great. What's something that you're excited about right now?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:06:11]:
Well, I have been freelancing, writing, and consulting, and editing for the past year for a lot of different people and groups, and I am super excited about all of these kind of grassroots movements that I'm seeing of church leaders. And not even leaders, just normal, everyday people who are wanting to experience something different in their faith. And they are not kind of drawn to the typical structures and systems that we've seen in place with church. They want to do something new, and it's a new thing that's not reactive to the old or reactive to pain. It's just new. And it's coming from a healthier place than I think it's ever come from before. And so I am really excited about what this kind of. This next era of church looks like and moving away from hierarchical structures to mutual flourishing.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:07:04]:
And what does it look like more dialogue based instead of teaching based. And, you know, which. What is this? What does this look like in people who are nothing drawn to the influence necessarily or the money that comes with the celebrity status, but it's more about just this kind of grassroots movement, of just knowing that with the money comes feeling tied to doing things a certain way and saying, we don't want to do that. We want to do something new and different and kind of piece it together as we go. So that really excites me. There's a lot happening on the ground.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:07:39]:
Hmm, very cool. Is there anything else you want to add that I did not ask you about? And you're like, wait, wait, wait. We got to get into this.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:07:48]:
I don't think so. You covered it all congrats.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:07:54]:
Thank you. It was the wine. It was glasses of wine. And it's all easy, right?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:07:59]:
That's right.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:08:00]:
Okay, so if someone is like, wow, I like her, this is great conversation. How can they find you? Connect with you online?
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:08:09]:
Yeah. Instagram and Twitter. Probably Instagram more than anything. Sb Anderson. Yeah. Follow me there. Twitter, my emails up there on Instagram. If anyone just wants to chat, talk, whatever, and yeah, that's it.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:08:26]:
Awesome. Well, Sarah, I feel like I'm talking to a friend that I've had for a long time.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:08:32]:
Same.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:08:33]:
We just met. But you are. You feel like a kindred spirit. And I so appreciate the work that you're doing, the ideas you're sharing in this book. I hope more and more people read it, ponder it, and do the hard work of asking their 90 year old neighbor why he's got his out the way he does. And you invite us to something better. That is difficult, and it's not easy. But I do think it's better.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:09:02]:
And we desperately need this in the season we're in. So thank you so much. Only for all the work you're doing, but for taking the time to have a special glass of wine for today on the podcast and spending time with us, we sincerely appreciate it.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:09:20]:
Great. And we're going to need an update on your neighbor so you're not off the hook.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:09:26]:
Now. There's accountability built in.
Sarah Bauer Anderson [01:09:32]:
Thanks, Jeremy. This was awesome. I appreciate it.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:09:35]:
On that note, well, everybody, I want to thank you for joining us. This has been a super fun conversation. And if you're like me, maybe you have some homework you got to go do, or you got to pray about it, build up the courage, talk to that person. But thank you for joining us. For those watching and listening, so glad that you're a part of it. We'll catch you on the next episode of Cabernet and Pray.
