Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:01]:
Hey, friends, welcome to another episode of Cabernet and pray this is actually episode 30, which feels like a cool milestone. I mean, I don't know what 30 means, but whenever we get to a cool number, I feel stoked about it. We've been going for over a year, and yeah, it's been cool just to see how more and more people have gotten connected with this. And I continue to love the conversations that we have. And in conversations with you guys, I'm hearing that a lot of these conversations are actually applicable and helpful to everyday life. And so I love hearing that. And today is going to be super applicable, and I'm excited for you to get to this episode. Today is a conversation with Britt Baron.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:46]:
Britt is a speaker, storyteller, and author. Her latest book, do you still talk to grandma? Is out on October 1. And that is one heck of a book title. I love it. Britt is on a mission to find out if we can disagree with people we love and still have relationships with them. What a great thing to work on applying right now. Ken. We disagree with people we love and still have relationships.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:01:15]:
Britt and her wife Sammy live in Los Angeles, California, with their dog, Charles Barkley. Just another great name, and numerous houseplants that they treat like children. Friends, you are in for a treat. Enjoy episode 30. Do you still talk to grandma?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:02:57]:
All right, well, welcome to a very special morning recording of the podcast, Brit Barron.
Britt Baron [00:03:27]:
Yes, I am very, very excited to be here.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:30]:
Awesome. Well, we are excited to dive into your book. Before we do, we're going to talk about what we're drinking. And like I said, this is a morning edition. Normally we record these in the afternoon. I'm going to go for it. It's 09:07. As I record this, I am drinking a white wine, because that felt like I could do that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:51]:
And fun fact for all of you listeners or watchers who are maybe judging me right now for drinking in the morning, when I was taking my wine credentials, they actually recommended you drink in the morning because your palate is better. So if you've ever wanted an excuse to drink wine in the morning, there it is. This is a Grenache blanc, the 2021, and you may go, well, Grenache. If you know anything about wine, Grenache is a red wine. So if you've ordered a Grenache before, it's a red wine. But this is a Grenache blanc, the blanc being the white part of. And so it's a Grenache made as a white wine, which is really cool. You can make almost any wine as a white wine, even if the grapes are red.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:37]:
And so this is just how they remove the skin contact. That's how they make this. This one's super refreshing. It's floral notes, got lime and lemon in it. And this is actually from Dobbs family winery. And Dobbs is the first one in Oregon to make Grenache Blanche back in 2009. So drinking a little history here. It's a fun wine.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:59]:
It's a good morning wine. That's how I'm getting started. Britt, what are you drinking this morning?
Britt Baron [00:05:05]:
This morning I've got a 2024 ice latte with oat milk. As you can see here, we've got some still separation from the milk and the espresso shot. I think that's intentional. Intentional pour to really activate the tannins in the oat milk.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:27]:
Wow, that was beautiful. Beautiful coffee description there. I actually have a friend who does a coffee podcast, kind of like, talks coffee notes while they do it. So you. You sounded like that. That was great.
Britt Baron [00:05:41]:
Yeah, I could go on that one and drink wine and just really mess up the whole system.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:46]:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm a sucker for punishment, I guess, so I'll go for it. Okay, we're gonna dive into your book. There is so many good things here. One of the things that just stood out to me is you. You refer to yourself as a storyteller. That comes across quickly in the book as you just have these great stories and there's so many of them.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:08]:
I mean, like, the story that just sticks in my mind is you gluing your teacher to the chair. And I mean, I just, like, I felt all the emotions with you as you told the story of, you know, you thinking it was funny at the time, you retelling the story with mortification. Now, I mean, you just have a ton of these. You have a story of making a mistake on a photo shoot that literally, I felt all your feelings with you and I wanted to die with you. Just, I mean, you're that good of a storyteller wherever you're bringing the reader along. So I do want to give a plug if anyone's like, oh, I like a good. A good story. Britt's going to give you tons of stories that you're going to be able to connect with.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:49]:
But what I also love about this book is you also have a lot of terms that you're using and words to describe things that are going on that may not be words that people normally think of or terms people normally think of. So it gives us kind of like a hook to hang these conversations on. And these are conversations that we need to have and are obviously very tricky to have, and you're giving us tools to do that. So my hope in going through some of your questions today is we can look at some of these quotes, some of the phrases you're bringing out kind of give some tools for people in this conversation. But I have a question I ask each person when I begin, and you had a quote that just sets me up for this. So I'm going to use your quote to set up the question that I ask everybody. You say this. What we believe can and usually does change.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:07:39]:
If I went back and read you one of my journal entries from ten years ago, we would both laugh, cringe, and probably cry again. A lot of people can relate with that. So here's the question, Britt. How has your faith changed over the last ten years?
Britt Baron [00:07:56]:
Oh, my gosh. I mean, it's probably a shorter answer of how hasn't it changed? I think everything from the way I understand the world to the way I understand scripture, I think everything has evolved. One answer that I usually say that feels most appropriate is everything about my faith feels less fragile. I think there was a long season where the way I was brought up and the way faith was introduced to me in spirituality and these ideas and these beliefs, it felt like whatever you do, don't look behind that curtain or under that rock, because it's going to tell you that something's not real and that this doesn't really exist and that this wasn't a factually true story and it's going to unravel the whole thing. And so there was a lot of fear around, like, curiosity. And I feel like once you blow that whole thing open and you put everything on the table and you still find a. Some semblance of what you had before, well, now it's so fragile, and it's just true because I know it and I've experienced, I lived it. It's not true because someone told me it was true.
Britt Baron [00:09:03]:
And I feel like that is probably the number one way my faith has changed is it's just way less fragile and can't really be threatened by much.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:15]:
That is so good. And I love, I've done a whole podcast just on the fragility of Christianity because you're. You're spot on. And as you explore a lot of the ideas deeper, you realize how delicate the system can be. And people have these beliefs, and if any one of them starts to fall apart, you know, you have these huge crises of faith. And I love that that's been your experience of this, this stronger, just less fragile faith. I think that's a goal of, for all of us. And you're certainly giving us ways to reduce the fragility.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:54]:
So if you're listening to this right now and you're like, yeah, I want that. I want a less fragile faith. Let's dive in. Here's how you do it. Here's. Let's get into some of the nitty gritty here. Okay, so you say this. Our desire for and our tendency toward binary thinking and polarization is actually a psychological phenomenon known as splitting.
Britt Baron [00:10:16]:
Okay?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:16]:
So this is this is an idea that I love. Splitting can be helpful when we're trying to make decisions and trying to choose between things. But you're obviously talking about the downsides. When we apply that to people, how do we work against this tendency? How do we say, okay, we have this. This leaning toward this idea of splitting things into good and bad, but when we apply to people, it has problems. What have you learned to maybe, like, work through that better and not use it on people?
Britt Baron [00:10:45]:
Yeah. I mean, so much of what, however we address everyone else is usually an insight into how we are addressing ourselves. And so if we are not capable of holding our own nuance, so if we believe that we are completely on the right side of the line every time we figured it out, we're the ones with the answers, we're the ones doing it right. And we are just like, right, right, right. Then we can allow ourselves to believe that someone is completely on the wrong side of the line and everything they believe is bad or wrong. When the reality is, if we can sit and hold the tension between the times we've gotten it right, the times we've missed the mark, the things we're unsure about, the things we are sure about, the ways we've changed these things, then we can begin to do that for other people. I think our tendency to want to split is because it's uncomfortable to do some of the most important work that we have to do as humans. And that is hold two things to be true at the same time.
Britt Baron [00:11:42]:
And that is absolutely how we get out of binary thinking, is to hold two things as true at the same time, not as competing to see which one wins. Just to say, you know, I think a lot of us have done this, like with families, like with our parents, we'll be like, oh, my gosh, I'm so grateful for all these things. Like, I love my parents. Oh, wow. This was actually really kind of a hard thing that I'm undoing. And the goal is not to say which one of those wins. The goal is to be able to hold both of those. And that's how we get ourselves out of this splitting phenomenon.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:12:13]:
So you're actually saying it begins with us? Because that's a cool way to say it. If I'm on the right side of something, then splitting is always going to put other people on the wrong side. But if I refuse to allow myself to be on the right side, and I acknowledge, yeah, I can be all this. And, yeah, it reminds me when my kids were growing up, they'd always ask me, they'd watch a show or something, and they would say, you know, dad, is that a good guy or a bad guy? And they wanted to know in the story, like, just tell me, is that guy good or is he bad? And I just remember, like, there was something so simple in my kids watching these stories of they wanted. They wanted to make sense. Like, which one does he fit into? And I remember trying to explain, like, there are no good guys. There are no bad guys. Like, we all have this in us to make good choices and make bad choices.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:01]:
And so I love that idea. Like, splitting begins with us. Like, you're not on the right side. Have you learned how to. How do you keep yourself from thinking you're always on the right side?
Britt Baron [00:13:13]:
I mean, it's. It's tough sometimes because I'm like, gosh, I really do feel pretty right, you know? And, of course, there are certainly moments where I'm like, okay, I think in this thing, in this way right now, like, I feel confident that this is a good thing, right? That this is something I want to, like, advocate for, but I have to remember that I'm a whole person, right? And so it's this idea that, like, oh, I did something that I felt like was right, I must be all right. Or, like, I did something, like, now I'm a good guy instead of a bad guy, when the reality is I'm like, I could do something beautiful and amazing for the world and advocate for justice and liberation and truth and a beautiful moment, and then I can just, like, go and, like, just be a dick somewhere, like, and, you know, rude to someone on the street. Like, there's. There's not a moment of arrival. And I think I've. I've had to get that out of my head of, like, every moment. I'm trying to choose what I feel like is the best next step, and I don't always choose that.
Britt Baron [00:14:16]:
And so if that's true for me, it's got to be true for everyone else. And. And I I've learned to become very. I'm very cautious of my own self righteousness. Like, the moment that I start thinking, like, oh, those dum dums over there, like, they'll never understand how evolved we are over here, then I'm like, oh, that's a warning sign. I need to sit with that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:14:40]:
Okay, so let me ask it kind of in the reverse. Do you ever see someone that is so out there that you want to just say they are the wrong side of the line? And do you try to caution yourself that way, too, to say, no, they could make different choices. Or do you. Are there times you just go, no, they're. They're over there.
Britt Baron [00:14:58]:
I mean, there are times I do that for sure. I mean, every time I'm on the Internet, I'm like, get out. That is a very real thing. I like to. The things I write about and the things I'm pushing, I'm, like, moving towards. I haven't even arrived at all of my own, like, things. You know, it's like, people who write parenting books, they're always like, I can do this one third of the time. Like, this is the right thing to do.
Britt Baron [00:15:21]:
Like, this is the. But you know what I mean? You're in real life. And so, yes. Are you kidding? It's 2024. It's an election year. There are people who I'm like, I can't even see straight right now. I don't even know what you're saying. But my hope and the thing that I keep trying to push myself towards is to know that at any moment, any person can choose a different option.
Britt Baron [00:15:45]:
And that's very true to me because that's something that I've done. So as. As wild as I look at people kind of on the Internet, when I think about, like, me 1015 years ago, I don't know if I sounded much different from the people now who I'm like, they're too far gone. I'm like, no, I was too far gone. Like, you know what I mean? I rank that Kool Aid like I was in it. And so to know that that's possible for me, well, then it's possible for anyone. And trying to stay close to that is a helpful tool. But sometimes I'm like, oh, gosh, I need to log off.
Britt Baron [00:16:24]:
I gotta get out of here.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:16:26]:
You're over there?
Britt Baron [00:16:27]:
Yeah, yeah. I need a break. Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:16:31]:
Okay. Here's another great phrase you bring up. In 1989, the psychologist Eric Kruglonsky coined the term cognitive closure. It refers to the point at which our brains decide that enough information has been gathered to make a decision. The concept of cognitive closure is necessary for our survival, because our life is a never ending series of decisions. This one got me reflecting for a little bit. I pause and I'm like, okay, this is interesting concept, because certainly we don't want to be open minded about everything, right? Because, you know, we're not sitting around going, let's debate the merits of child abuse. Like, there's topics that we're not open to, if we were, to be honest.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:17:13]:
But there's other things that we need to remain open to and say. Maybe we had closure a little too early on that one, just so that we had peace of mind, but we need to work through it. What have you found is a useful guide of when to close something and when to go? Maybe I'm not there yet. I need to keep going.
Britt Baron [00:17:32]:
Yeah, no, this is super helpful, and this is one of the things I say, and I'm so proud of this book, and I love it so much. And one of the reasons why is it was so hard to write, and parts of it were super confusing. And so studying this work and this idea of cognitive closure was super helpful because it really helped me understand how somebody gets to the point of extremism, but where it wasn't helpful was exactly what you're saying. How do we define that line? And so, something that I like to think about and wrote about was, how can we identify the difference between primary and secondary beliefs? And so I am cognitively closed on my primary beliefs. And those are simple, right? Like, all humans are deserving of dignity. I want to work towards a freedom and a liberation that includes all people exist to reduce harm and violence in the world. And so these are primary beliefs but secondary beliefs. So if we look at it as almost.
Britt Baron [00:18:36]:
I'm cognitively closed on the what, but I need to be a lot more open on the how. And sometimes I think we don't realize it, but we get cognitively closed on the what and the how, and those things change and evolve. So even. Even your example right now, like, hey, we should be cognitively close on child abuse. Even what that means, though, has evolved in our time. Like we would have said, you know, when our parents were growing up and they were like, oh, you know, you did something bad, I'm just gonna, like, literally, like, beat you with this belt. And that wasn't abuse. That was just, like, parenting, you know? And now we're in this space of, like, gentle parenting and all these things where we would say, no, that is absolutely abuse.
Britt Baron [00:19:17]:
Right. And so I think we need to be open that the ways in which we engage in our primary beliefs in the world will evolve and should change. We need to remain open about those things. Right? We all know people today who still like, no, that's just like parenting. Like, you know, take those kids in the back and, you know, get them a few good times, and that'll teach them a lesson, because they haven't evolved in their. In their secondary beliefs. How we work this thing out. I think, especially in a lot of, like, social justice circles, I think this is very difficult.
Britt Baron [00:19:49]:
So we have these ideas on race and gender, sexuality, homelessness, all these justice issues, and we are actually, like, all want the same what. And we are arguing about the how, and it's really difficult, right. Because I think I. What I want to be open with is, like, okay, I believe, you know, this thing bigger than me that I call God is moving in the world and moving towards liberation for all people. And I need to be constantly open about how that shows up. I mean, that can be difficult because your approach can change. 15 years ago, I thought it was showing up by me going to some other country and, like, handing people a Bible in a different language and being like, this will do it. Like, this will save you.
Britt Baron [00:20:32]:
And now I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, that has expanded. So I think I'm cognitively closed on primary beliefs, but I'm constantly open on how they're going to show up and manifest in the world.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:44]:
Do you think people. Okay, so that's an interesting distinction. The primary, secondary. Do people's primary beliefs change?
Britt Baron [00:20:52]:
I think they can. I think they do. And I think when we talk about relationships with people we disagree with, I think community has. Is on the table. Like, community can be lost the moment our primary beliefs are misaligned, if that makes sense. So, like, if I say, oh, now, what I would say is I want liberation for all people. I think it probably was a primary belief at some time in my life that I want all people to be, like, saved through Jesus Christ. And that is like, a big shift in primary belief.
Britt Baron [00:21:30]:
And so I think those things are hard. Primary beliefs are harder to reconcile than secondary. And I do think that they can change and evolve to a certain extent. You know, I think once you get to like, okay, I want everyone to be okay. That's. It's pretty broad.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:47]:
Yeah, that's an interesting way of thinking of it, because there is. There is a big, big difference between you and I are, you know, are debating secondary beliefs versus you and I are debating primary beliefs. The primary beliefs conversations are tricky. You know, where you're talking some. You're like, I don't know how to move forward on this. You know, and to use your example, you know, I'll talk about, like, the theology of hell sometimes, and I'll try to explain to people, like, hey, historically, the church has believed, you know, one of three general positions, you know, and I'll explain it. And one of the three being that Jesus is going to save everyone. And for a lot of christians, they'll be like, that's just, that's too far.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:22:25]:
And, you know, one of the things I always find it interesting, I'll say, okay, I understand that may seem crazy, but would you want that to be true? Like, if you could pick which of the three God's gonna do, would you want the third one to be the one where God saves everybody? And to me, that is, even if you don't think the scriptures say that, okay, I can understand that, but wouldn't you want that to be true? And then I found people are like, no, I don't want God to save everybody. And that's when you realize, like, oh, our primary beliefs are different here. Because I, what I assumed was a shared, you know, connection isn't a shared connection. And then that gets. That gets really tricky. So that's. I don't know if that's encouraging, because I think there's a lot of disagreements on primary beliefs. But, yeah, maybe we can help people keep working on closure on the right things.
Britt Baron [00:23:18]:
You know, the thing that I think about a lot is, and we have to understand that what we believe doesn't exist. Like, we are not just a collection of facts, right? We're a collection of, like, the stories we've chosen to buy into and understand in the way the meaning we've made in the world. And so a lot of folks, especially in the church space, whose primary beliefs exist in that way, is tied to other things as well. It's tied to psychological safety. It's tied to physical community. It's tied to their sense of belonging. And I think understanding that creates an empathy within us and the way we even approach that conversation, because sometimes I think about, I'll be having a conversation with someone, let's say we're having a primary belief, like. But in my mind, the question, like, circulating in there is, what would it cost you to agree with me? And when I know that that price tag is high, then it creates a lot of empathy for me in moving forward in that conversation, because you're not just telling me you believe this.
Britt Baron [00:24:20]:
And sometimes I'm like, I don't even know if this is what you believe, but this is what you need to believe to be in this community, and that means everything to you. And so now I can understand sort of how and why we're having these conversations. I stayed in faith communities, like, a little bit longer, I think, than I should have agreeing with their primary beliefs long and straight because I didn't want to lose all my friends. And that's just like a human reality. And so I have a lot of empathy for folks whose primary beliefs I wonder if are as solid as they seem to be when they're. When they're argued with me.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:24:55]:
Yeah, that's really well said. Okay, another great phrase. You have progressive amnesia. This is one I like. Progressive amnesia is the tendency to forget, conveniently, our own lapses and learning trajectories. It's what happens when we disconnect from our personal growth histories and allow ourselves to forget our own pasts. Okay, this one hit me, Brett, because I'm not great at this. I'll just confess that, in fact, my wife has had to help me with this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:25:27]:
There's been a number of times, because I would say, you know, the person I was, let's say, 20 years ago, what I believe 20 years ago, very different. Very different. So I'm often talking to people who are believing, you know, where I was 20 years ago, I know exactly why they believe what they believe. I used to hold those beliefs. I have worked through them, and now I look at them like, why can't you see this? You know, I'm presenting a way better idea to you, and you can't see it, and I'll get frustrated. And my wife has literally, on numerous occasions, had to remind me, like, jeremy, how long did it take you to change your mind on that? And you want them to do it in one conversation? Like, you just pitch the idea to them and you think they're ready to go. Like, it took you years and books and mentors and, you know, and all these conversations to get to where you are. And I never had a term for it, but it's like, that's progressive amnesia.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:26:21]:
Like, no, I've always been here. You know, I don't remember what you're talking about. I love this. How do we work through this? How do we challenge our own sense of, like, I never believe that. Like, just get on board.
Britt Baron [00:26:33]:
It's so funny. And it is, like, it's just the funniest phenomenon. And I have it, too. And part of it, I think, is because when we learn something new or we evolve in a way, and that feels maybe more true to us or more. Right. We can easily feel like we've always been here, but we absolutely have not. And it is so funny to me when we, like, look at people or look around and we can't even imagine why, and we get, like, so red in the face, but I'm like, we all sat there. We all didn't know something.
Britt Baron [00:27:04]:
The thing I talk about in the book is like, we've all watched a movie from a long time ago, and being like, wow, that really doesn't hold up. All of our lives are that. And so I think it is so important to stay close to the versions of ourselves that came before now. And we have to understand them, and we have to have empathy and compassion for them, and we have to remember what it felt like to be them, because that is the only way we are going to approach change in a way that can bring them along. I think your wife is exactly right. Sometimes we enter into a conversation with someone like, I can't believe you. You don't know this. I'm giving you all the right facts.
Britt Baron [00:27:41]:
But I'm like, that's not what got us right. Like, I remember I came out before I came out. I thought for years, every single day, I struggled with the reality that I was gay. Like, I was in therapy. I talked to the therapist. I'm like, in there crying every week for years being like, is this bad? Am I okay? Am I going to hell? Is there hell? What's happening? For years, it was like every single day until finally I was like, okay. I think I am okay, and I think this is gonna be okay. So then you're telling me when I tell my parents, I'm expecting within five minutes that they have the same arrival at a location that took me years to get, and it was me.
Britt Baron [00:28:28]:
And so I think sometimes we forget the journeys we went on and then we arrived somewhere and we present someone with, like, a two cent, like, a tweet, and we're like, I'm like, this is years of our own development that we are trying to, like, bring someone along in a single conversation, and that's not realistic.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:51]:
Okay? So I'm glad I'm not the only one who's struggling with this. You know, you're raising the connection. This is really a key to empathy, because if we're bad at this, we will be less empathetic to the person, you know, who's not where we are, if we're good at this. And we go, oh, yeah, I totally remember where I was. I totally remember leaving that and what it took me. Now all of a sudden, I can view you with a ton more empathy. That's huge. I mean, that seems like that is a game changing tool, you know, just to go, hey, the next time you're talking to someone who you think, you know, I cannot believe you still hold this, you know, idea or this belief.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:29:34]:
Think about progressive amnesia and can you create empathy? And. Yeah, even your story of, like, how long it took you and then you need. But that's the hard part. You need people to get on board with where you are, even though they don't in that moment have the time to catch up to you.
Britt Baron [00:29:52]:
Yeah, you need. And they can. And honestly, realistically, that is what my parents did. Like, in my particular situation, they were so surprised, but they said, like, whoa, like, you know, we love you and we're gonna figure this out. But, I mean, they were, like, shocked, and then they did, and they went on this whole journey, and they found these, like, little parent clubs. And, I mean, it's a whole. It's the sweetest thing ever. But there was.
Britt Baron [00:30:19]:
Even if we initially agree, and I think so something like, we saw this a lot in 2020 where our nation sort of, like, blows up and we see, like, the murder of George Floyd, and a lot of people are like, oh, that. That was wrong. And they had that initial step, but then there's, like, okay, well, now here's, like, hundreds of years of, like, systemic and institutionalized racism to, like, catch up on. And those are the journeys that, like, there's gonna be, like, you're gonna be on it for a while and. And there's so much empathy, and, like, someone who's on a journey, learning. And there's, like, I. The people who I am most critical of, most easy, most easily critical of, however, is the best way to say that are people in the seats at conservative evangelical churches. And that is because that is the version of myself that I am most critical of.
Britt Baron [00:31:16]:
And so me continuing to, like, continuing to find empathy for the version of me that, like, sat there and felt safe there and enjoyed it and felt like God wanted me to be there. Like, that was the. We were the one people who got it. Like, I need to continually cultivate empathy for her so that I can have it for the people in those seats.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:31:39]:
Oh, that's so good. And I think you're onto something there. Probably the people that bother us the most are because they represent some version of us in the past that we're frustrated with.
Britt Baron [00:31:51]:
Oh, yeah. Yes.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:31:53]:
Like, I could be that. I don't want to be that, you know, or I can't believe I was that, you know? And. And so we're hyper. Hyper sensitive, hyper critical. But, you know, as I'm thinking, it's like, the people who are going to be most effective in positive, positively influencing others will be the ones who are patient, who can say, hey, I'm going to keep showing up with you. I'm going to keep helping you. I'm going to keep guiding you forward, you know, in these conversations, helping you navigate it. And, you know, if we're able to do that for others, we're giving them the chance to go on the same journey we've gone on.
Britt Baron [00:32:27]:
Yeah. And if we remember the journeys, like, when you asked the very first question, how has my faith changed? I think about, like, that I can look now. I feel, like, a little bit removed from it. So I'm like, oh, I used to think this and then, and then I think this, and it feels great, you know? But I'm like, if you really remember what it took for you to change your mind on, you know, whatever it was, then you realize, like, oh, my gosh, like, this is a, this is, this is many. This is like many days of pulling on tiny threads of, like, a very, very well knit sweater, you know? And I think if we can remember that, then we'll. We will approach it, like, a little differently, you know?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:11]:
That's so good. Okay, one more quote I want to dive into. And this one, this one is another. Like, this is tough. You say you can either be right or you can be in the work. You can't be both. What I mean is that mistakes are inevitable, that they are necessary, and that you have to get it wrong to learn how to get it right. If you want to be in the business of growth and progress, you have to get familiar with the lost art of making mistakes.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:40]:
Nobody is interested in making mistakes, especially on things that matter. And if I recall, the context of this was doing anti racist work. And so especially for white people to enter into a conversation where we don't always know what we're saying, we're gonna stumble. We're gonna say, hey, I had good intentions, but, wow, that was not the right way to do that. This is super scary for people. And as you mentioned, a lot of people just go, I'm not. I'm not interested in, you know, getting canceled or saying the right, the wrong thing in the wrong way, so I'm just gonna stay out of it. And then, no, you know, positive change happens.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:34:18]:
How would you encourage us? You seem to be comfortable in this space, probably more than most of us. What. What words of wisdom can you help people with?
Britt Baron [00:34:29]:
Listen, we have to take what we know to be true and translate it to every area of our lives. Like, you have to make mistakes. No one just hops on a bike at six years old and just, like, rides off into the sunset everything we know about evolution, we know that we learn more through the mistakes that we made and we can course correct and we can understand those things. And this is true for every area of our lives. And our ability to make mistakes, well, I think will be the defining factor in how much growth and transformation we experience in life. I know far too many people who are so afraid to have a conversation, a real conversation about any number of topics, and so they just disengage. And I'm watching as the world is literally leaving them behind because they just are so afraid to make the mistake, when making the mistake is the thing that creates us, like, in us, the people we need to become to be a part of this transformation. And something that was really important to me is I was like, every single story I tell in this book that involves me, I want it to be one where I did not nail it, where I did not get it right, where I was one who made mistakes, because these are actually all the most transformational moments in my life.
Britt Baron [00:35:46]:
It's not all the mountaintops, it's not all the time did right. It's all the mistakes. And I feel like if we can remind ourselves the value in that and create a culture around understanding that mistakes are a part of our experience, and I think we're going to be so much better off moving forward. And I think the hard part is there's some real accountability to certain types of mistakes, and I think that's important as well. And if we want to be in the business of moving forward and transformation and maturity and liberation, we, mistakes have to be a part of it. They just, they have to, or we're not actually moving. I think everyone who's afraid to make a mistake, they, they're going to be left behind. And that's, I mean, some rapture trauma for you, but, you know, also left behind ideologically, not like a pile of clothes in the living room and you don't know where they went.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:36:41]:
Like Kirk Cameron left behind. Like, what kind of pile we talk about.
Britt Baron [00:36:44]:
I literally said left behind and I was like, oh, whoa, I'm triggered myself. But yeah, I mean, we, you have, you just have to like you. If you don't want to mistake, make a mistake. If you want to get everything right, if you want to exist on the right side of line, you may find a way to be quiet enough to never make any kind of noise like that, but you're definitely not going to be evolving.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:37:15]:
Those are, those are wise words. And also, I think we could just see all the faces of everyone watching listen to this. They'd all be like, oof. Like, yeah, that's tough. And one of the things you talk about in the section on mistakes that after I've read it, I've had this, like, come up, you say that it causes you. When you make a mistake, you realize that the next time you do it, you slow down and it causes you to go, oh, think that through. And I thought that, like, that insight, I'm like, that is so good, because, you know, we can just kind of go robotically through the motions of, I know how to do this. I know how to do that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:37:54]:
And it's in the moment you make a mistake that then the next time you go, oh, slow down. And it's that thought process of, is there a better way to do this? Is there a different way to do this? And because I made a mistake last time, I'm going to, my brain is literally telling me, like, well, red flag. Like, rethink this before you do it so you don't make a mistake again. And I think that's. That's the growth. It's not comfortable at all, but it's that. That little internal flag going, hold on, hold on. Like, is there a better way to do this? And, yeah, I think you're spot on.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:38:23]:
Like, you just have. You have to be willing to do this and, you know, to. Depending on what the mistake is, to accept, you know, accountability for it, which is also a whole nother element of that. But that's what growth looks like. And I think. I think you're laid out a path that most of us intellectually can go, yeah, that's good. And then it's like, who's courageous enough to do it?
Britt Baron [00:38:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's simple, but it's not easy, I think. And that's good. I think if you're looking around and you're like, everything I'm doing just is, like, super easy, then great. That might be. That might be a season for you, but if you feel like you are just threading through and really pushing it, then I think this is the season that's going to get you to where you want to be.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:39:16]:
That's so good. Okay. I want to ask you a few questions that I ask each of our guests. And this can be like rapid fire, so you don't have to go as long on these, but always love hearing people's insights. And after we've kind of had a chance to get to know you a little bit, one of the things I want to do as we do this, and I have no idea this is going to go, but I thought, as I was reading your book, there's a real life situation that came up, and I thought this would be fun to ask britt about. Just help us work through something in real time before we get to these questions. Okay, so are you familiar with the Dave Grohl saga that's going on lately?
Britt Baron [00:39:54]:
I'm not.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:39:55]:
Okay, so Dave Grohl's the lead singer of the Foo Fighters, and he was, like, considered one of the good guys in rock and roll. Like, people have just have loved this guy. Well, just, like, I think a week or two ago, it came out that he had an affair on his wife with a mistress. She's pregnant, and so she's going to be having this baby. And, like, people were just, like, stunned. Like, oh, this was, like, the good guy rock and roll, and he's just like everyone else, and all men are scumbags. I mean, like, lots of reactions, and then what I'm watching is people wrestle with. But what about these decades of music that we have loved? And I thought about your book of, like, do we still talk to grandma? Like, just, you know, when you have this moment and you.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:40:37]:
You bring up, you know, some of your own friendships and things. So, I don't know, in real time, like, someone's going, okay, do I still listen to the Foo fighters music when I know this guy made this bonehead mistake? How would you help people navigate some of that thought?
Britt Baron [00:40:55]:
Yeah, no, this is a tough one, and this is a good one. And I think so much of it comes down to, I am constantly pushing people back to themselves. If you feel like you cannot, with integrity, hold those two things to be true, then sure, don't listen. But I think so. I have a similar. I'm not, like, a huge foo fighter fan, but I have a similar situation in that, like, Harry Potter is, like, absolutely foundational and integral to, like, my experience of life. Like, truly those books and then the movies and then, like, it's. It's meant so much to me.
Britt Baron [00:41:32]:
You cannot disassociate me from, like, Harry Potter and JK Rowling is on a rampage. Okay? Like, she is. Like. I mean, I. Not a single thing coming out of her mouth is something that I agree with on the opposite things, I think, that are very damaging, actually. Terrible, the worst. And so I. I hold this tension of, like, yes.
Britt Baron [00:41:53]:
And, like, I am choosing to hold it to say, this work has been so important to me, and so it's just a part of my journey that I can't even untangle. And so that, to me, that's, like, something I have to sit with of, like, these are so very. So, like, if the Foo fighters would be like, this music is. It's just. This is my. Damn, this was our wedding song. This was, like, a song from, you know, whatever. Like, it can be that, you know? And I think we can hold two things to be true of.
Britt Baron [00:42:21]:
Like, I really do not, you know, appreciate what this man did to his family and thought it was different. And this is my song, you know, like, you know what I mean? And that's the jam. Like, Harry Potter just. It just. It meant so much to me. Like, I feel like Harry Potter is mine now is, like, kind of. Like, I'm like, that's me. Like, and I don't have to.
Britt Baron [00:42:46]:
It's the same with, like, Kanye West's graduation album. I'm like, can't I. It's. It's in my brain forever. And so I think that's a long answer, but I think ultimately, if you feel like, for you, it's not something you can do with. With your integrity, then that's fine. But I think it's good things for us to wrestle with. Like, yeah, what.
Britt Baron [00:43:10]:
What does it mean that artists are human needs, too, and what does it mean that their art has impacted us and parts of it are, like, untangle from our life and experience? I think that's a beautiful thing.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:43:24]:
That's so good, you know? And I relate with Harry Potter. I love, absolutely love Harry Potter series. I read it every, like, couple years. And I also agree with you. Like, I've looked at JK Rowling and going, what are you doing? Like, truly, are you. I don't. Like, I don't understand. And I don't understand how you wrote these books.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:43:42]:
Like, I think the books are so good, and I don't understand how that's you. How did you produce that? But what I have found, like, I don't picture her when I'm reading the books. Like, I. Like, I know that it came from her mind, but, like, I'm not mentally thinking about her or her involvement in it at all. So that one has been easier for me to go, yeah, she's out there, but, like, these stories are good. Whereas, like, I look at the Foo fighters and I'm like, I would have a harder time, I think, now, enjoying the music, knowing, like, oh, man, but this is. This guy. It's his voice, you know? So I do think there are times where maybe depending on the nature of the art, even, might be like, oh, that one's easier for me to kind of figure out what to do with.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:44:24]:
And that one just keeps bringing that thought up. And so I appreciate you diving into real time. Maybe someone's. Someone's dealing with their Dave Grohl sadness.
Britt Baron [00:44:34]:
And sorry to all the Dave Grohl fans out there. Yeah. I just found out who he is today, so it's less impactful on me.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:44:43]:
Oh. I mean, I would put myself in the camp. I've been a Dave girl fan, and I just have watched, you know, the Internet blow up the last couple weeks, and people, like, publicly mourning and, like, what do I do? You know? And so I thought, I'm gonna ask Brit. Okay, so here we go. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
Britt Baron [00:45:05]:
Oh, again, I don't even know where to start. Gosh. Unlike practical levels, like, I used to. Like, I used to think of a straight. That was, like, a bummer to find out. Yeah. I used to think that, you know, christians had everything, right? And they were the ones who, like, figured out all the right things. I used to.
Britt Baron [00:45:34]:
I mean, I just. I used to not know what a mortgage is. That's, like, a random thing that I keep thinking, why don't we teach that in school? I used to think that, like, paying a credit card off and then closing it would help your credit score. Those are all random things. It actually makes it go down, in case anyone else didn't know that, like, paying off your debt makes your head go down. Yeah. I don't know why. When you ask me that, all those are the first things that came to mind.
Britt Baron [00:46:01]:
I was like, why don't I know that?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:46:03]:
Like, that was a great answer, Britt. You covered so many different topics on that issue. That was great. Okay, let's see. What. What do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
Britt Baron [00:46:18]:
Oh, I think. I think the main issue facing Christianity is its misalignment from the people to the empire. I think that it is far too entangled. We're talking about, you said in America, right? Yeah. I think we are far too entangled with America and less entangled with the narrative of scripture and the life and teachings of Jesus.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:46:47]:
That's great. What is something that's blowing your mind right now?
Britt Baron [00:46:54]:
Um, electric cars.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:46:57]:
Oh.
Britt Baron [00:46:58]:
Why are they so fast? Like, why are they so much faster?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:47:08]:
I love it.
Britt Baron [00:47:10]:
No, I don't.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:47:13]:
It doesn't picture you just, like, walking through a parking lot, just in awe of, like, cars driving by. You like, look at you go. Look at you go.
Britt Baron [00:47:20]:
It is because you have like a rivian, like, the big electric. It's like giant. Like, I never. Four runners. It's like. It's like, even a little bit bigger than that. It's like, huge, but it's like. Like faster than a porsche, you know, it's so fast.
Britt Baron [00:47:37]:
Just because it's a battery. I mean, I. Yeah, that's a great answer. Yeah, that's nothing to do. None of that. Contents in my book. Yeah. Okay.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:47:49]:
What's a problem you're trying to solve?
Britt Baron [00:47:54]:
Oh, my gosh. What is the problem I'm trying to solve? This is a great question. I don't know. I think it's hard because my initial answer is that I'm trying to get out of the business of solving problems. I think I'm. I have released a lot of responsibility for solving problems in my life, but there are a lot of tensions I'm sitting in, but I don't know that I would even say that I'm trying to solve them because I feel like that complex is something I have to have had to put down. And so I don't know how many problems I'm trying to solve, but there are multiple realities I'm trying to hold right now. I think just even as the book comes out and logistics of that and tensions of that and my own feelings and tenderness towards it.
Britt Baron [00:48:55]:
Yeah. So that's not a good answer. But I don't know. I mean, there's practical problems, but. Yeah, yeah, my dog has excited about right now. Oh, my gosh. I'm so excited about the fact that my book is coming out and I'm going on a book tour and my wife is going with me, and we're gonna be, like, all over and visiting friends in each city, too. And having this.
Britt Baron [00:49:22]:
Having this conversation is so exciting to me. Like, just being able to talk to people about how we move forward together is just the best.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:49:31]:
Is this part of it more fun for you than the writing part, or do you like all of it equally?
Britt Baron [00:49:38]:
I think I like them about the. I like them about the same. And they both push different parts of me. The writing is so isolated. It's so singular. It's just like you and by yourself, and this is, like, so involved. So it hits the introvert and extrovert side of me, but they both push beyond what I'm comfortable with, I think. So I like it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:50:00]:
That's great. Is there anything else you'd like to add that I have not asked you about. And you're like, wait, we gotta address this.
Britt Baron [00:50:11]:
Oh, I don't think there's anything that. That we miss. That's huge. I think in terms of, like, wrapping. I do just want to say, I think this can be a heavy conversation or it can feel heavy, but I think it's just such a good reminder to ground ourselves. Even in your very first question, like, in all the change that we've experienced, I think there are people in our lives and people we look at and we don't think that they can ever change. And I think people looked at us like that. And so just remembering that we did it so it's possible is very helpful for me.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:50:48]:
That's so good. Okay, so people watching and listening this are going, hey, I like her. This is great. How can they find you? Connect with you online?
Britt Baron [00:50:57]:
Yeah. So you can find my book details. Okay. I know the title.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:02]:
You need to get this figured out.
Britt Baron [00:51:04]:
Yeah. Here you go. Yeah. Okay. This is. I got it. My book. Do you still talk to grandma? You can get it anywhere.
Britt Baron [00:51:11]:
Books are sold. If you don't want to get it, you could go and ask your local library to carry it. Be very helpful. You can find me at Brit Barron on Instagram or [email protected].
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:25]:
Dot awesome. Well, Britt, this has been an incredible, enjoyable conversation, having some morning wine, discussing this book with you. I'm super stoked for your book. I think it's fantastic. It's a rare mix of the personal story that captures all the emotions of that as well as I think it's okay to say heady ideas, not like, you know, you're gonna lose people. But there's some. There's some meat there. You know, that people are gonna go, oh, I gotta really process that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:56]:
And you have captured them both in a way that I think will really resonate with people. So I'm stoked for more people to read this. Thank you for taking the time to discuss this with us today, and I love the work that you're doing.
Britt Baron [00:52:12]:
Oh, thank you so much. And thank you for having me and letting me drink coffee on the wine podcast.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:52:21]:
Hey, we try to extend grace to all people here, so that's awesome. Well, hey, everybody, thank you for joining us for this episode. Go check out Britt's book coming soon, and we'll see you on the next episode of Cabernet. And pray.
