Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:00]:
Welcome to another episode of Cabernet and Pray. My name is Jeremy and I get to be the host of this wild adventure of a podcast where we explore Christianity through the beauty of wine. Before we begin today, I want to let you know something super exciting, and this is going to be fun. We have a wine and whiskey trip that we have created. I've heard from a number of guys over the years as we've done this. I'm like, yeah, I'm so so on wine, you know, but I really love whiskey. And we found a way to incorporate both. So we are creating a guy strip.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:35]:
This is going to be February 21 through the 23rd, and this is going to be in Oregon. So we're going to take you on an adventure to go see where all this stuff is made, literally where it's grown, where it's made. We're going to go to different tastings, a whiskey tasting, a couple wine tastings, and then have some conversations about Jesus. And really, this stemmed from conversations on this podcast where we get to talk about all sorts of things and. And dive deep and explore things that maybe you haven't heard preached in church or you haven't ever had a chance to explore with people. We're creating a weekend for guys where we have the space and the time to talk about it. And I'm so excited for this. There are only eight spots left as of this moment.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:01:22]:
When I'm recording this, you can check out all the details, find out more about this trip. Communionwineco.com forward Slash Events I'm super excited. I think it's going to be so fun and you can experience an unforgettable, unique experience with both wine and whiskey in Oregon with us. Well, today on the podcast, we've got Sean Palmer. Sean is the author of the book speaking by the numbers Enneagram Wisdom for teachers, pastors and communicators, and on 40 days on being a three, which is another Enneagram reflection. He's the teaching pastor at Ecclesia Houston, one of America's most innovative and vibrant multi site churches, serving a predominance of millennials and young adults. Shawn and his wife, Rochelle, have been married for over 25 years, and they are parents to two adult daughters. Shawn just has an incredibly thought provoking way of looking at the world.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:02:23]:
You just get a sense of his wisdom and the way he processes things deeply. I hope you enjoy episode 32.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:19]:
Welcome to the podcast, Shawn.
Sean Palmer [00:04:22]:
Hey, it's good to be here.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:24]:
Well, before we dive into today's conversation, we need to talk about what we're drinking. And today I'm trying out a 2021 barrel house red blend from California. The weather has finally started to turn in Arizona. I got a long sleeve on today because it's actually in the seventies. So we're chilly. I mean, we're cold over here, and I'm bringing the red wine out. I've been waiting. I haven't had a chance to really get this out.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:53]:
This is primarily a cabernet sauvignon, but it's a blend I was trying to look online. They don't disclose what the blend is, but what's fun about this one is it is aged in bourbon barrels. So I'm always a sucker for cross aging in barrels. I think that's super fun and adds complexity of flavors to what you're drinking. This one is pretty mellow. It's an easy drinker. I think this is. I think it's like around a ten dollar bottle.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:18]:
I was looking for some cheaper options because a lot of the bottles I do are directly from the wineries, and I wanted bottles that you guys can find in the stores as well, so. So I think this one's an easily approachable cabernet. I'm getting black cherry notes, leather, cedar, and some pipe tobacco, which just feels when it's, the weather's starting to feel like fall finally. So that's what I'm drinking. I'm enjoying it. Sean, what do you got in your glass today?
Sean Palmer [00:05:45]:
I am drinking this 2022 Dow Cabernet Sauvignon. Black red berries. It's not very tannic, kind of medium acidity. It's one of the ones. I was kind of like you, where I wanted something people could find, and this is in almost every restaurant. Anyone can order it, and it's a safe order for anything. And it's in the high seventies here in Houston, so I'm wearing long sleeves, too. Trying to feel the fall.
Sean Palmer [00:06:24]:
Trying to will fall into existence.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:27]:
Yes.
Sean Palmer [00:06:28]:
So we're along the same lines today.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:32]:
Well, cheers to you, my friend. And if you guys notice, that was a pretty robust explanation of what Sean's drinking. And a lot of guests, you know, don't really know what to say. Sean's a wine guy, and this is why this is fun. We've been talking for a while now. I've been wanting to get him on the podcast. This is just going to be. This is going to be a good time.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:52]:
So, Sean, I want to begin with a question. I asked this question to each of our guests, and it gives us a chance to get a little bit of your journey, kind of a snapshot into who you are, what you're going through, and also really paints a picture to me of what Christianity looks like. So the question is, how has your faith changed over the last ten years?
Sean Palmer [00:07:17]:
Oh, wow. That's become. That's a good ten years to pick. I like it. So we have been back in Houston, at Ecclesia Houston, for about eight years, and we knew this church before. And my friend Jonathan talks about this, and he says, like, he didn't move from conservative to liberal as much as he moved from closed to open. And what I'm experiencing more and more is that my faith feels more open, more curious, more explorative than it did when I was younger. I am grateful for the younger expressions of faith that I had through the years, and they guided me.
Sean Palmer [00:08:04]:
I got really rooted in some particular ways. But instead of having a reactionary disagree, agree. I don't like that. I like this sort of faith. It's much more, huh. Let me think about that. Let me pray about that. Let me explore.
Sean Palmer [00:08:22]:
Let me ask people who know more when it comes to an issue or topic or culturally sensitive point. Let me find some conversation partners to explore that with before I just accept it or rejected. That's the fundamental way that my faith has changed. It's become much more inquisitive than it was before.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:47]:
I love that. That's definitely, you know, one of the goals we have. Not, not that people would land on, you know, one issue or one way of thinking about things, but that openness of learning and growing and hearing all that. And you definitely seem to model that in the way that you do ministry. Now, what's fun is I asked you what you wanted to talk about on this podcast, and you have so many. The reason I asked you, I don't normally ask our guests, but you have so many things, you have your hands that as I was thinking about this episode, I thought, man, we could take this a number of different directions. We could talk about this or that. And so I kind of was stuck where I was like, I'm just going to ask you, like, what direction you want to go? And I was not prepared for your answer.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:35]:
Your answer was not at all one of the ideas I was thinking of. So I'm excited. We're going to talk about a few topics that you want to talk about that you're interested in. And I think a lot of people are going to go, oh, this is super interesting. So we're going to dive into that. We're going to go right to the deep end of the pool. We're just going to go to the deep end. When I asked you, like, what are you thinking about? What do you want to talk about? You said you've been thinking about aging and death lately.
Sean Palmer [00:10:06]:
And I was like.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:07]:
Okay, all right, yeah, aging and death. So let's go there, Sean, tell us more. What are you processing about aging and death right now?
Sean Palmer [00:10:18]:
Well, the reason that that came to mind is that this last summer, I turned 50, which there's just something that happens when you cross the half century mark, I think for many of us, where you begin to ask serious questions about life and your role in life and what you want to do, and not only what you want to do in the future, but you also reflect on what you've done in the past. And so it's this marker in life where you know for sure that you have fewer years ahead of you than you do behind you. And so you start to think about an accounting for those years. Like, what have they meant? What have they meant to me? What have they meant to my family? What have they meant for the kingdom? And then what do I want to do moving forward? And at the same time, last summer, the summer I turned 49, my older brother died. He was 53. He's 52 at the time, so he would have been 53 this year. And you realize when someone that close to you passes away suddenly and unexpectedly, that you can't take all of this for granted anymore in maybe even the way that you had before, like, there, that life does have a date. So you do begin to take seriously psalm 90, when Moses is talking about, Lord, teach us to number our days.
Sean Palmer [00:11:39]:
And you realize, oh, that's important because my days are actually numbered. And so a lot of the resources out there when it comes to aging are about either, like, aging well or grief or when someone dies young. And so I wanted to spend some time playing around with this idea of, like, I legitimately could have 40 years ahead of me. So that's still a pretty good Runway to get some things done and to dream new dreams, but I don't probably have 50 years ahead of me, so I need to take seriously what that means for me and for the rest of the world. And so I spend, and it sounds morbid to a lot of people, I spend a good bit of time every day thinking about death, and in particular, my death. Like, what it means for our two daughters, what it means for my wife, what it means to live a good life. Like, what does it mean to die holy? Because there's a lot of conversation in christian circles about how to live holy. There are very few conversations about how to die holy.
Sean Palmer [00:12:51]:
And, you know, CS Lewis makes this illusion, right, that, you know, who would you be if you just kept becoming the person that you are? Like, if you're just on the trajectory that you are? And that just bled into the future? And I wanted to take that seriously with the rest of the time that I have. So I know most people don't want to talk about their death, but I really do because it is inevitable. And there has to be a way, like, my gut tells me, like, there has to be a way to live until death. Well, so that's the kind of thing that I'm spending a lot of time thinking about. I think it'd be really interesting for folks to explore a little bit more how to live at as if you were truly dying, but not in that, oh, heaven, hell. Like, if you're gonna die tonight, where would you spend eternity? When I wake up tomorrow morning with my own death ahead of me, what choices would I make? How would I live? How would I speak to people? How would I vote? What would I prioritize? All of those kinds of issues.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:14:00]:
Now I can imagine people saying, well, the reason I don't wanna talk about that is that's super depressing. That seems super heavy. You're not talking about it with this sense of woe is me or depressing or. That's not the vibe. How do you think you can address this topic? How can we be more okay with this without it going to that? Like, oh, man, this is so heavy. How do we maybe we make it where it's more of a normative, healthy conversation?
Sean Palmer [00:14:31]:
Well, there are a couple of things. I think a place to start for me is the reality of what christian faith is, which is that through Christ, my conviction is that I am a living being and I will never stop living, not in the eschatological sense. And so, because that's the truth. Like, I have nothing to fear. So my death then becomes kind of like moving to another stage for which I want to be prepared. It's a flames of heaven conversation where I can't remember who exactly said it. You know, for some people, the flames of heaven will be worse than the flames of hell. And what they meant by is, like, if you are greedy, like, if you are an abuser, if you are mean spirited person, you would hate living in the full radiance of God for eternity, because that's just not who you are.
Sean Palmer [00:15:30]:
You've not come to appreciate and to love what God is. And so then looking forward to death. Like, planning on my death is like, how do I become the kind of person who will enjoy being with God forever? That by the time, whenever my time comes, that I am shaped in a fundamental way that says, this is actually what my soul was made for. Like, I enjoy this kind of meaning. I enjoy this kind of beauty. I enjoy who God, God is to such a degree that I could do this forever. So, like, if you hate the opera, for instance, right? If you don't ever learn to appreciate what the opera is, how it tells stories, how the music works, then going to the opera every time is going to be a chore for you, right? You're going to hate going to the opera, but if you learn to appreciate it and love it for what it is, then the opera becomes a joy for you. And so moving from one life stage to the next is like going to the opera.
Sean Palmer [00:16:35]:
How do I become the kind of person who can enjoy who God is forever? And so that, to me, is a joyful, hopeful, transcendent task versus what typically happens when we talk about death, which is there are people I love, and there are things that I love that I'm going to miss, which is inevitably true. Like, I want to see my children do all of the things. Like, I. If my daughter's getting married, I want to walk them down the aisle if they have children. I want to be a great grandfather. I want to be there for all of those joys. But I also want to be the kind of person who appreciates those joys but knows on a deep level that those joys are a lesser joy than being in the full presence of God. So that when the time comes for me, I am moving from a lesser to a greater experience.
Sean Palmer [00:17:37]:
And not only that, but it's a lesser to greater experience that I am joining, that all of the people who I love here will one day join me in. So, I mean, part of that has been, like, listening to a lot of songs about death. And so soon after my brother died, the artist Pink released a new album. And on that album is a song I think is about her father and his death called when I get there. And the chorus, I might mangle this because I haven't memorized it. But she says, is there a bar up there where you've got a favorite chair, where you sit with friends and talk about the weather and multiple expressions of things that he loved? And then she says, at the end of the chorus, you'll tell me when I get there, right? And like, that, to me, is what I. What. How I want to lean into death like that.
Sean Palmer [00:18:35]:
When my time comes, people like my brother will be like, let me show you around this place and how incredible it is. And that's hopeful to me.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:18:47]:
Wow, that's beautiful. I think one of the challenges is just to not shy away from this conversation and to be thinking about it. And one of the reasons I was intrigued that you had said this is I don't think I'm processing it as deeply as you are, but I've been thinking more about, you know, what does my life look like and what will look like in the future. And I went to. I took my kids to Bisbee in, it's a little town in Arizona, a little mining town. And we were doing all these during fall break, doing all these, you know, little experiences. And we went into this mine shaft and learned all these stories. And it's like the, you know, tombstone of Bisbee is like the most history that Arizona has.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:19:40]:
And so you go back a hundred years, and that's like, that's ancient, you know, for us. And it got me this picture of, like, all these people I'm. I'm learning about are all dead. They're. None of these people are here. And it was just kind of like, you know, just a reminder. And then at the end of the tour, they invite you to, like, you can buy, like, little crystals and mineral stuff, you know, from the mine. And I belief that these minerals are doing things for you, which I personally buy into that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:04]:
But it was just kind of a cool thing. But I did buy something. And as I'm listening to you, I'm like, this is reminding me of this. So for those who are watching this on video, it's this little skull made out of. I don't even know which crystal this is, but it's like a little crystal skull. And I saw that and I thought, I want that to be my reminder of, like, all these things that I love history. Like, we're all a part of that. Like, there's this ongoing story, you know, that God's telling, and we get to be a part of it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:34]:
And then you play your part and you move on. You know, it's like. And other people take the story from there. And I think you're offering so much of. There really is not a lot of people inviting, I would say, the church, but why anybody really to die well? And I don't know if you've read the book Tuesdays with Maury, have you read that book?
Sean Palmer [00:21:01]:
It's been a long time, but I remember parts.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:03]:
So my son, one of my sons had it assigned as, you know, reading for their class. And I was like, I've heard about this book. I'll read it. And it's this thing. This guy's like, I'm dying. I'm going to document everything because I want to die well, and I want to show people how to die well. And it's kind of what you're talking about of rather than fearing it, like, learning to see this is. This is part of everything.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:24]:
And so, yeah, that's fascinating to think about continuing our growth, continuing our evolution. What does it look like to just view that as the next stage, I think is a very different way of looking at it. And I also think we don't need to get into this because this would sidetrack us. But I also think some of the crazy fear theology maybe in Christianity, is why we also are a little. Little uneasy on this topic. Because, you know, if I'm viewing the majority of the world's going to be burning, literally, or friends or family of mine are burning, then that obviously adds quite a bit of complexity to this. But I would say if we can move beyond some of the scary theology from the medieval church, we can learn to see this in a very beautiful way. And I think you're offering us that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:22:17]:
So thank you.
Sean Palmer [00:22:20]:
Yeah, well, all transitions are difficult. And every time through life, to move on to the next stage, the next thing that God has ready for you, requires people to have something that they love and have become a. You come accustomed to die. Like that is, you know, Ronald Rollhizer talks about the Paschal mystery, and part of that journey of the Paschal mystery is like, the old has to die in order for the new to come. Like, the seed must fall to the ground, right, for the new to come. And we are so fearful of death and like, which is so funny because, like, Jesus comes, people overlook this all the time, and they say, well, why did Jesus come? Say, well, to forgive us of our sins. Well, the scriptures also say Jesus came to free us from slavery to the fear of death. And most of what happens in many churches is re enslaving us to death.
Sean Palmer [00:23:28]:
So we become very attached to this world, to politics, to America, to money, all of those tangible things that become in so many ways idols for us, that we forget that God is actually transforming us away from all of those things into something greater and more glorious than that. So we hold on to what we can see and what we know in absence of embracing something that's much more meaningful and much more beautiful than what God has in store for us because we can't always see it. And then the worst among us play on that natural fear. Because when you arrive on planet Earth like a baby has one job, to live like, to survive. That's what they are trying to do. But as you mature, you move, if you mature well, from not just trying to survive and live to trying to thrive and give, but because a lot of forces in our world, a lot of forces in our culture want to keep us immature. They keep us in the live stage instead of the give stage of life. And you can only give.
Sean Palmer [00:24:53]:
You can only birth something new. New things arise when something old dies. And I learned this when my first daughter went to college, because that year, her senior year, was really difficult for me because she was leaving our family. Like, the four of us have been, like, the center of life. And the reality is, when you have a kid grow up and move away, is your family doesn't die, but that version of your family dies. But she could not become the thing that God created for her to become if she stayed here with us in that same way. And so it is this process of releasing and freeing nothing for releasing and freeing sake, but it's the only way that something new comes. I mean, Jesus talks about this, like, you can't put new wine into old wine skins.
Sean Palmer [00:26:01]:
Like, it's just not going to work. You have to get something new for the new thing. And that means that the old wineskin has a purpose of and a use. It produces something beautiful, like that satiates and brings beauty and meaning. Like, I enjoy. I don't drink wine all that often for someone like me and you, who have put so much time into studying for tests and all of those sorts of things, like, I don't to be certified. Like, I don't drink wine all that often because I want to enjoy it deeply when I do have it, and because it's super fattening and caloric. But, like, that's the beauty of that process, right? Is that it is used for something beautiful, something that we use to celebrate, but it has a timestamp where it has to be put away for the new thing.
Sean Palmer [00:26:58]:
It's not good for the new thing. And that's the way I'm trying to see death and dying kind of moving forward. So it is, you know, death. Life is a series of surrenders, Jeremy, and death is the final surrender.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:27:16]:
This is like poetry here. You're just dropping all sorts of beauty on us today. I like it. Okay, Sean, a lot of the people that I interview on this podcast either were pastors or, you know, had a bad experience as a pastor or just left it for something else. All sorts of different pastoral relationships with the church. Between the guests that I've had, you have continued in the pastoral role. You have seen the front row, and in particular, the last handful of years have brought a lot of changes to that. And so I was thinking you've had the front row seat to church ministry before, during, and after Covid.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:27:59]:
And Covid has obviously been a game changer for so much of life, but especially the church. I would love to hear from your point of view, how have you noticed our sense of community has changed in recent years as a result of all of this?
Sean Palmer [00:28:18]:
That's a great question. And that I feel like Covid accelerated what was eventually going to happen anyway. So Covid was like, just putting the pedal to the metal and made things happen faster. And it. It revealed a lot in the modern church. It revealed how many people were part of their local congregation out of inertia or habit. And when the habit went away, they didn't really know what to do. And so it's taken churches a lot longer back from COVID than they thought it would like to recover, whatever that means.
Sean Palmer [00:29:00]:
But I do think for many folks, it's, you know, it's been a little bit of everything. Some folks have come to the conclusion that they needed much more community than they thought. Just being with people face to face, connecting with folks. Some folks feel like they needed less than they thought. Like, hey, I didn't miss going to see those people. I think we are in a massive renegotiation of what it means to be community right now. And I don't think anyone knows the answer to that question. Can you do community online? Can you be in people's lives just when you only connect with them a couple times a week? I don't know that anyone knows the answer to those questions.
Sean Palmer [00:29:40]:
I am very suspicious of people because we had people writing books about how to respond to Covid. Like, during COVID like, we've been in this for like, two months, and, like, okay, like, you've got it figured out. And then everyone has used what's happened over the last several years as the hobby horse for whatever they thought was the problem before that. So it's like, it's church leadership or it's too much emphasis on preaching, or it's not enough discipleship. And so some folks have just, like, tagged whatever they thought the problem was before onto what's happening now. And there's probably a little truth in all of those things, but the truth is, like, I'm not really sure. Like, I look at my own life, and so I'll speak to that as a pastor of a multi site, like a teaching pastor at a multi site church. We left the office in February, March of 2020 for Covid.
Sean Palmer [00:30:42]:
We have not invited our staff back five days to the office, and I don't think we ever will. Like, I work at home now. That has, for my role, produced some good effects because so much of what I do as a teaching pastor is sort of solitary, solitary work. Like, there's a lot of reading, there's a lot of study, there's a lot of writing. And I needed that time away from people anyway. But other folks need to collaborate more for their roles just inside the pastorate itself. Pastors, as a cohort, were pretty lonely already before COVID and I don't know that people who are in the pew week to week understand how lonely it is. You know, Fred Craddock called preaching a life of study, and that's really what it is.
Sean Palmer [00:31:29]:
Like, you are alone with books a lot of the time. And so I think Covid unmasked how lonely it truly was. Because. For pastors. For pastors, because you could fool yourself with a few lunches this week, a couple of staff meetings, that you were around people. And when all of that went away, it was like, oh, yeah, like I am. I went into this vocation because of God and people, and there aren't very many people in this anymore. And I.
Sean Palmer [00:32:05]:
That's a lot of folks I know have left ministry, as I'm sure you know them as well. Or they've said, I want to work in spiritual formation or other areas of local church ministry where they get to interface with people a lot more. But I think what we're going to see moving forward is that in the next five to ten years, we are going to realize that not just the pastorate, but Americans in general are suffering a crisis of loneliness. And even when we are around people, we are kind of alone in a crowd. And I don't know that anyone knows what to do about that, because all of our modalities have become on demand. And so we have taken the Netflix model and applied it to life. We listen to podcasts and audiobooks at two times speed, and that is not how other people work. You cannot have a relationship at two time speed.
Sean Palmer [00:33:06]:
You cannot. You know, it's come as to some of the Gen Zers and late millennials in our church coming as quite a surprise to them that their friends are hurt. When they canceled dinner plans last minute and they said, well, I just didn't feel like making it. And I want to say, oh, yeah, to be in relationship with people means that you need to show up for them when you don't feel like it. So we're gonna. We're going to experience not just in the church, but en masse, like, a complete renegotiation of what it means to be, like, what it means to be in relationship with people. And I don't know that anybody's got answers for that that are satisfactory for most folks.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:50]:
So I feel. I feel a little bit attacked on your two time speed. I'm just gonna say that I don't. I don't know if you've been watching my audible usage, but I love the fact that I can double up the speed and work my way through books. And you're spot on. There are people that annoy me because they're slow talkers, and in real life, I want to speed them up and be like, let's go. Turn the dial up a little bit. This is too slow for me.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:34:20]:
And you're spot on that you get used to these things. And then relationships don't work like that. And you find yourself with the slow talker at lunch, and you're going, oh, we are not gonna cover a lot of material today, so I'll try. I'll try to work on that. Sean, I feel a little bit defensive here. That's so good. You're spot on. Okay.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:34:46]:
There's a couple quotes I dug up from some things that you've written that I think are pretty good, and I want to get your take on it. You are a big Enneagram guy, and you're an enneagram three. So for those who are Enneagram people, this is who you're listening to. I'm an enneagram eight, and I married an enneagram eight. So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Sean Palmer [00:35:11]:
So not a lot of feelings going on at your house.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:35:15]:
We work through everything, Sean. We work through everything. It's great. I literally. I tell the story. When I took the enneagram and I discovered I was an eight, I'm like, that makes sense. I had my wife take it, and I'm sitting with her when she gets the results, she's like, I'm an eight. And I literally panicked, and.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:35:35]:
And I was like, this is bad. And then I immediately went to the website of, like, the relationship pairs. Like, what happens when an eight marries an eight? Because I'm thinking, does one of them kill the other one? Like, how does this play out? Like, this has got to be bad. We've made it work. We're making it work. I like it. But all that to say, you wrote about being a three, and you address a theology. That is one of my personal issues with the church in America today, because they don't preach what you're saying here.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:36:07]:
So I love the fact that you are in ministry, but you're also expressing an idea that I do not find in many churches. And so here's what you say. Who you are. Your core is inherently good and made in the image of God. You don't need to feel badly or apologize for the natural gifts that are inherent to who God created you to be. Spiritual formation is not about taking on a new Persona. It's about releasing the false parts of that personality. The bones are good.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:36:42]:
You don't need to tear down your house. I love that because what I hear in many churches is basically, you suck as a person. But good news. Jesus can fix you, and Jesus is the only one that can stomach you. And because of that, we'll make you palatable to the world. And here's what I. Here's my hot take. I've come to the conclusion the reason so many churches preach this theology is it makes people easier to control.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:37:17]:
If I can convince you that you are inherently bad, you will second guess yourself. And when someone with authority comes around and says, this is the right way, do it this way, you'll be better. You're much more susceptible to that. And I think we're seeing that in a lot of abuse in a lot of churches. Whereas the line that I always tell people is, if we're all so broken and we all are so inherently sinful in all of this, then God as a creator sucks at his job. Like, God is not a good creator. Because if. If I were to make a whole bunch of products and you were to conclude all of these things that you made are all broken, they're all flawed, they're all defective.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:37:56]:
We have to fix all of them. You would not keep coming to my business and going, that guy's good at his job. You would go, no, that guy's not good at that. And that's how I feel. We talk about God. You're saying the opposite, and you're saying it from the church, Sean. I love it. So how can we learn to see ourselves inherently good, and to use your phrase, still release the false parts of us?
Sean Palmer [00:38:22]:
Well, the Enneagram answers four big questions. And those questions are, how do I perceive the world? How do I get what I want? How do I connect with the world? And what do I do when I don't get what I want? Right? So those are the four big questions that are at the heart of the enneagram. Some of what you're talking about, Jeremy, really is built in theology terms. Some folks have a theology that the core humanity that we are is bad in and of itself. And so the best thing that you can do is become less human. I understand why they think that. I understand where that comes from. But here's the problem with that way of thinking, is that there is an imaginary perfection that you can reach in terms of your personality that strips all of that away.
Sean Palmer [00:39:16]:
And God does not desire or want us all to be the same. That that is the beauty of what the church is, is that it is this body where different people bring different tools and roles and perceptions and ways of seeing the world. God gives us different experiences, and we bring those all together to make up the church. And so it is a denial of what God is doing in the world, and God has always done in the world to say that the ingredients that made you are fundamentally flawed. Plus, no one ever gives you besides, like, saying, like, be like Jesus. Like, something that you ought to do. Like, so you as an eight, your wife as an eight. Like, there are tools that you bring to every circumstance, and there are gifts that you bring into those circumstances that the world and the church needs.
Sean Palmer [00:40:12]:
There are also some obstacles that you have to overcome to use those well. And so growth is learning to identify and manage the obstacles so that your gifts can bless the world. And that's what God has always been about. Like, how do we use our gifts to bless the world? And then what sin then is? And there's all of that. I mean, like, there's so many great definitions of sin, but none of them. None of them is perfect. Like, even when you say whether it's missing the mark or lots of things that have been talked about, and none of them is perfect, which is why we need all of them, because they all have elements of truth. But in its core, like, I don't want to sin because I don't want to damage me or my neighbor.
Sean Palmer [00:41:01]:
And this is sin is saying, like, these are the things that you can do in the world that would be damaging to you and damaging to your neighbor, so don't do them because your role in life is to bless your neighbor, not to do damage to them. That God wants to have me participate and partner with goddess to bring about God's preferred future for all of creation. And so to do that well means to sin less. But it does believe. It does rest on your view of humanity. And there are just some folks who have a high view of scripture and a low view of humanity. And there are other religious sects that have a high view of humanity and a low view of scripture. It's not my role to tell people, like, which they should have.
Sean Palmer [00:41:48]:
I tend to have a high view of people and a high view of scripture. And I have a high view of people because I have a high view of the God who made people and that we were not an accident. And God is trying to do something. I wake up every morning with a deep belief that God wants to do something with my life and that God is leading me to do some things both with my, like, in my family, in my community, in my world. And so does that make me perfect or does it even make me good? Some days it makes me good. Some days I'm not so hot. Not so hot at it. But I want to make sure that I want people to know that the way that they are wired is God intended.
Sean Palmer [00:42:34]:
It is why I wrote what I wrote, and that you will waste a lot of your life trying to be someone else and not use all of those gifts. So when God made you, God meant something good when he made you. And you need to know that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:42:56]:
Amen to that. Okay. You have another book called Unarmed in Search of beloved community. And you have a great quote there. You say new strategies, better programs, skinny jeans, louder music, and hipster beards won't rescue the church from the sticky position we now find ourselves in. We need a new imagination, an imagination that understands what Paul means by new creation. One of the things I have found is that in what is often referred to as, like, the deconstructing conversation, a lot of these people are looking for this imagination, and they're not finding it in church. And they're realizing that the church is offering these.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:43:45]:
These answers to these questions, and they're over here and they're going, yeah, but what about this? And what about this? And that doesn't really look like Jesus. And I don't understand how you arrived at that. And I think we've lost. Collectively, we've lost this. This ability to have this imagination. How do you think we can bring imagination back into the majority of our practices of Christianity?
Sean Palmer [00:44:11]:
Yeah, that's a great question, which I can only. Okay, Jeremy, here's my read of the american church and why we have trouble with this imagination. And it's simply this. The american church is too accustomed to power. And once you become accustomed to power, losing power or retaining power becomes your primary objective. And so then you start to leverage the tools of the world, whatever around you in order to keep and maintain power, because you don't know how to be faithful without it. And so the majority church, by what I mean to say, that the white church in America actually has the tools it needs to be a truer reflection of Jesus if they looked to african american churches and hispanic churches who have been faithful in America without having cultural, political, or, or culture, societal power. And so what we've seen, like you mentioned, deconstruction.
Sean Palmer [00:45:25]:
I just finished Scott McKnight and Tommy Phillips's book invisible Jesus about deconstruction. And what folks are deconstructing isn't the gospel. They're deconstructing what the american church has become. And they're holding it up and saying like, okay, this is the scriptures and this is the Jesus we find in scriptures. But this is what the american church is, who they support, what they do, what their reflexes are, and they don't line up. And so it's, it's, the conversation is about deconstruction, but what it's really about is discovery. Folks are rediscovering the Jesus of scripture, and folks who are entrenched in political or cultural or social power don't like that. They don't want a Jesus who is welcoming and loving.
Sean Palmer [00:46:20]:
Like, these are folks, you know, like Dallas Willard said years ago, who want Jesus for his blood and little else. They don't want to actually walk the way of Jesus, who was disempowered, who was homeless, who was poor and still managed to change the world. Our current imagination is if we elect the right people and we have the right folks in power in the right places, then we can enact the kingdom of God. And if it takes politics or cultural or, you know, Hollywood, whatever we're looking for, for power in order to enact the kingdom of God, it's actually not the kingdom of God. It's just the kingdom of human beings with maybe some sprinkles every now and then of the, with the kingdom of God in it. So we've got to kind of go back to source on a lot of this, you know, and when I. It's interesting that you mentioned unarmed empire. That book is now coming up.
Sean Palmer [00:47:19]:
I mean, it's coming up on eight years old. That means it's probably been ten years since I wrote it. In some ways it feels like to me it was ahead of its time. Those are the issues that people are now currently talking about. And at the heart of that, Washington. For me, I wanted to write a book that would reflect the jesus I saw in scripture for my daughters who were in middle school and elementary school at the time. Like, this is what the church should be. And what happened, Jeremy, when we were shopping that book to publishers, is that over and over and over again, what we heard back, what my agent heard back from publishers, is no one is interested in the church and what the church is supposed to be and do.
Sean Palmer [00:48:07]:
And I think we are now experiencing the reality of pastors and churches overlooking the prophetic call of the church in a society for so long that what Christianity came to be was an individual goes to a certain place, and certain things happen in that place, and then they take that home for the betterment of their own lives without any consideration of being a healer and blesser to their neighbor or the nations. So to recapture that imagination, which was your question, what we need is a radical rethinking of what the church is like. Who are we as a people and what we are invited to do. And it's all there in scripture. Like, for as I get a lot of pushback from people about the content of unarmed empire. But zero, I've heard zero of that pushback be rooted in scripture. It's always been rooted, you know, rooted in. But what about abortion or what about LGBTQ issues? Or what about.
Sean Palmer [00:49:19]:
It's about political policy, but never about the scriptures, because it is a conservative, in my view, and I grew up in a conservative tradition. I still consider myself a conservative reader of scripture. I think it's a conservative take on scripture, quite frankly, no one who is pushed back on unarmed empire has pushed back from a scriptural argument. No one said that I'm wrong about what the Bible says.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:49:43]:
Is that where you're ending that thought? Yeah, and mic drop. All right, we're gonna. We're gonna pivot a little bit here. I'm gonna ask you a wine question, and then we're gonna go into our speed round. It doesn't have to be fast. These are just easier. Easier answers than the answers you've been giving so far.
Sean Palmer [00:50:09]:
That's your way of saying my long winded answers?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:50:11]:
No, it's good. It's just the. These ones will be easier for you. The other ones are like, we're going to unpack some things. So I love. This is a podcast that incorporates faith, Christianity, and wine. So let's spend a moment on the wine part, and I think you may have, hopefully, a good answer to this question. If I were to say to you, Sean, what comes to your mind when you think about maybe the best glass of wine you've ever had? Maybe it was a bottle.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:50:40]:
Maybe it was a glass. Was there. Was there a moment that. That comes to your mind? Do you remember what you were drinking? Do you remember where you were? Do you remember who it was with. What could you tell us? What comes to your mind with that question?
Sean Palmer [00:50:54]:
Oh, my goodness, that is so hard. I've had so many great bottles. Like, matter of fact, like, even for this podcast, my wife and I were discussed, like, we don't have any bottles, that I was like, what do I want to open just to drink on a podcast? Because they're all too nice. Look, we've become collectors now instead of drinkers. I think, for me, we were members when we lived in California of this little boutique winery called Jessup Sellers in Yountville, and they have a wine there called table for four. And it's about the four owners who started this. This winery and this vineyard. And that was kind of the bottle that sort of unlocked it for me.
Sean Palmer [00:51:37]:
It was like we were at a tasting, and they said, would you like to try, like, our top of the line and it's table for four. We have some here in our house that I don't. It'll probably go bad because we're so scared to open it because it'll just be vinegar by the time that we drink it, because we're like, what occasion is special enough that we want to. That we want to open that? And I'm talking about, like, we've got, you know, things like booker ones sitting in the, you know, and we've got some really good stuff. But that wine was really the one for me. And it was just a tasting with my wife years and years and years ago when we lived in California.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:52:19]:
I love it. That's great. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about theological or anywhere you want to take this?
Sean Palmer [00:52:38]:
Oh, my God, there's so many things. So my wife and I talk about this a lot. We were both raised to believe that people who. We were both raised to believe that there was something suspicious about people who went into careers simply to be. Because those careers were lucrative. And that's not a question about greed, because greed is always going to be wrong. But we have come to believe in the last four or five years that we were probably misled in our young life that there was something inherently wrong with making money or doing something for the money primarily. You don't want to take that too far.
Sean Palmer [00:53:24]:
You don't want to build a life out of it. But that was one that for us recently is like, oh, no, we know we have come to meet a lot of very wealthy christian people who use, who deliberately earn great wealth because of what they believe the kingdom is inviting them into and young people who go into careers simply because they know it will be lucrative, because they want to do certain things in the kingdom.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:53]:
What do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
Sean Palmer [00:53:58]:
It takes a lot of different forms, but fundamentally, the problem that we're facing is how are we going to treat people who disagree with us, who aren't like us, and how are we going to do that in a loving and kind way? How do we inhabit the fruit of the spirit in meaningful ways in a culture that is vindictive and vicious?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:54:20]:
What is something that's blowing your mind right now? Something you're learning?
Sean Palmer [00:54:25]:
What's actually blowing my mind right now are the number of people for whom the church has been resistant or hesitant to receive yet still want to be a part of it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:54:39]:
Is there a group in particular you're referencing? No one group comes to mind, as you say that.
Sean Palmer [00:54:47]:
No. I mean, and I get that. I think that's true for a lot of people. But for me, it's like there are tons of people from all sorts of different classes that majority of churches have said one way or another, like you, we don't want you. And the fact that those folks persist in pursuing the church and pursuing God absolutely blows me away.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:55:17]:
I teach a couple classes as an adjunct professor in their ministry classes, and one of the final projects I just graded for the class on church ministry was, they have to create a mock church, and they have to design it from the ground up and think through all the different elements of the church. And inevitably, in all the. All of the papers I graded in this last class, not a single one of them had any mention or acknowledgement of the LGBTQ community. So I just make a comment like, so when christians in this community come to your church, they will find nothing on any of your documentation or any of your explanations, nothing that even acknowledges they existed, let alone they'll have to then figure out they probably can't participate. But you're not even thinking that they're there. And I think, to your point, there are communities of people who are following Jesus and are doing so with a ton of grace when you consider how they've been treated historically. And it is pretty interesting to watch.
Sean Palmer [00:56:25]:
For me, like, it's ethiopian eunuch story, right? Like, you've got this. You got this guy who goes all the way down to Jerusalem knowing full well, because he's a eunuch, that he will not be allowed in the temple to worship with a certain reading of the Old Testament, but he goes anyway. Like, that's someone who wants to worship God more than most people I know have ever wanted to worship God. Like Fred Craddock says, like who knocks on a door knowing that it will not be opened? And that's not just one community in America right now. We have said in many ways to all sorts of populations, don't even bother to knock. We're going to be in here doing our own thing. And we don't want you and the folks who persist in the knocking because they feel like even with the flawed people on the other side, that Jesus is on the other side, too. It's worth the nod.
Sean Palmer [00:57:29]:
That's really difficult theologically and politically, socially, culturally. Jesus is on my left and on my right, and he's with the people on my left and with the people on my right. And the biggest issue in the church moving forward is all of us recognizing that Jesus is with the people that are not with us.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:54]:
What's a problem that you're trying to solve?
Sean Palmer [00:58:01]:
The cost of college tuition.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:58:05]:
Good luck.
Sean Palmer [00:58:08]:
You know, Jeremy, for me, the question has always been, how can we be with one another? How can we be with and separate at the same time? I guess the fundamental relationship question, how can I be with you and be a separate individual at the same time where people know whether it's an institution or a person, like when it's in a marriage or with children, children and child raising. Like, I am fully with you, but I will not overstep, coerce, force myself on you because you are you and I am me.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:58:53]:
What's something you're excited about right now?
Sean Palmer [00:58:55]:
College football. I'm excited about the next generation. I've. I came up in ministry, in the youth ministry world, and I've always cared a lot about the next generation. And I feel like one of the questions I'm asking right now is my generation had its chance to answer the questions, theological questions that were burning for us. And I am interested and excited about the questions the next generation is raising and asking, and those are not my questions.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:59:31]:
Is there anything else you'd like to add that I may not have asked you about that we cannot shut this down until you address.
Sean Palmer [00:59:41]:
I don't think so. Yeah, you've asked some great questions.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:59:48]:
All right. Well, Sean, if someone's listening to you, they're like, hey, I like this guy. I want to read some of what he's written or follow along. How can people find you online?
Sean Palmer [01:00:00]:
Well, if you're interested in the books, they're all at Amazon. Just Sean Palmer. S e a n is how I spell my first name, and then for more, just Sean isaacpalmer.com and you will find all the things there. I also write a monthly column for preaching today, and so if you've got a subscription to preaching today or Christianity today, you can find a bunch of stuff there.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:00:25]:
Yeah, I read your last article on receiving criticism from people. I thought that was very interesting.
Sean Palmer [01:00:32]:
Well, no one likes it, but it's there.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:00:34]:
I've got a lot of scars on my body from doing ministry over the years. Hey, I just want to say it is a joy to finally get you on the podcast and Christian to Christian, wine lover to wine lover, and just love what you're doing, love the way that you're processing life deeply. And I think you have a ton to offer us. So thanks for taking time out of your day to share all this on the podcast with us.
Sean Palmer [01:01:03]:
Thanks for having me.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:01:05]:
Well, everybody, hopefully you enjoyed this episode as much as I did, and we will see you all on the next episode of Cabernet and Pray.
