Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:00]:
Welcome to episode 33. Before we begin today, I want to remind you about our guys trip that we have scheduled. It is the wine and whiskey trip and I love the reaction I'm getting to this. So far a number of you have talked to me about it. This is February 21st through the 23rd in Oregon. This is a weekend design to go to wine tastings, whiskey tastings, experience conversation with a group of guys and talk about Jesus and essentially do what we do on this podcast, but do it more relationally and in a closed environment where we can control a lot of those variables. And it's going to be an awesome weekend. I want to encourage you to sign up if you are a guy that's interested, if you know a guy that's interested, if your husband would be a great person for it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:54]:
Let's talk. Let's figure out how to get him there. The cost starts at 250 for a shared room or $400 for a private room. You can find out more on the website communionwineco.com events. It's going to be a blast. Reserve your spot now and you can experience that weekend with us. Now. Recently I posted a clip and I do this normally with most episodes.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:01:22]:
I'll record little snippets of it, post those online. And what's interesting about those is I get a completely different group of people reacting to it. Like I don't know if you ever created content online and you notice that there's different audiences, right? And you get different reactions in different arenas. And when these podcasts go out, you know, we have the regular podcast listening audience and then these clips go out and they go out to a different audience who usually don't know me. They don't know the podcast. They really don't have context for anything beyond just what they see in the clip. And so I get a lot of really interesting feedback. And it's honestly very helpful because it keeps me grounded with how these ideas strike people in real time.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:02:12]:
Right. I think one of the challenges of the church, and this was true when I was pastoring, is it can kind of become an echo chamber where you know, you're talking to the same people every week and in the same environment every week. And it's like, yeah, let's just agree with each other. These are all the ideas we agree with. And then every now and then you can be caught off guard of like, oh, other people think this idea is crazy. If you don't get those ideas out into the world and get, you know, a wider Audience well, this is what I get regularly now when these clips go out and I get all sorts of reactions. Well, one of the two clips that I posted from the last episode was, like, flooded with reactions, like, way more than I ever get. And they were all over the place.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:00]:
I mean, some of them were hilarious, some of them were infuriating. Some of them made me wish I had never posted it. You know, I'm like, everything in between. Some of them were legitimately adding things to the conversation that I thought were really helpful. And so it was like, all of these things, and it was so many of them, like, I couldn't even keep up with commenting back to people that I thought, you know what? This deserves its own episode. Because there's a number of observations I had as I reflected on the different comments I got that I think shows us some of the state of Christianity today and maybe where we have a weak spot that we need to talk about. And so that's what we're going to do as we dive in to episode 33. This is called space racism.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:16]:
As we begin today, I want to talk about what I'm drinking. And this is, this is fun because I'm drinking something I've never had before. And that's what's so amazing about wine, is there's obviously the varietals that, you know, people think about, the Cabernet Sauvignon, the Pinot Noir, Chardonnay, you know, some of these big boys that you can find everywhere. But then there's all sorts of other stuff that is out there and you can get your hands on. Just not as popular, not as well known.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:10]:
And so today I'm going to try something I've never had before. The grape is called a Lambrusco, which is fun to say. This is from Italy. This is the Dolce Rosso Lambrusco from Botticello, Italy. And this is a sparkling red wine. And super interesting. Now, Lambrusco can be made in different ways. It can be made dry, can be made off dry or sweet.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:38]:
Now, the word Dolce in this indicates that this wine is the sweet version of this. And this is a sparkling wine made in the tank method, which, if you know the way Prosecco is made, it's, it's similar in the creation as to a Prosecco. So it's made in the same way. And this thing is wild. It's, it's thick, it's like viscous that you can see the bubbles. I mean, it just looks super interesting for a red wine in my glass. It has more of a syrupy mouth feel to it. I wouldn't say it's overly sweet.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:07:15]:
It's not like some sweet wines I've had where I'm like, wow, I really gotta either be in the mood for that or have it like a dessert with it, because that is so intense. It's not that level, but it's very fruit forward. Like tons of fruit. Boysenberry, sweet cherry, BlackBerry. Almost makes your mouth water. It's also got high acidity to it, which is. It's kind of a fun vibe. I'm even getting some like cherry cola hints from this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:07:41]:
I'm Enjoying it. This is something new. And so this is my encouragement to my fellow wine drinkers on the pod. Check out something new. You know, go find a bottle of something you've never had before that maybe you don't know what it is, and just try it. The worst you're going to have is a bottle. You go, yeah, that's not for me. And friends, I've had plenty of those bottles where I buy one, I try it and I'm like, that is not.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:06]:
That is not for me. And that's how you know. But you also discover things. You go, this is really interesting. And this was really fun. So this is my encouragement. Try, try something new. I'm enjoying this Lambrusco.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:18]:
This is delightful. So if you're enjoying a glass with me, cheers to you and to episode 33. Now, as I mentioned in the open, I had posted a clip from episode 31. The clip that I posted was me referencing a story of a time that I saw Kevin Kelly speak at a conference. Now, Kevin Kelly is one of the co founders of Wired magazine. This guy's brilliant. He, you can see all sorts of lectures he's given online. He's written a number of books about this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:54]:
He's a Christian, exploring technology and AI and a lot of these ideas. And I'm guessing that when I heard him speak, it was probably 15 years ago is my best guess. And he predicted a question that robots will ask the church in the future. Okay, so he was saying, hey, if you want to forecast, like, what is on the horizon, what is coming, what should we be getting ready for? He was saying that it's this. This question that robots are going to ask. And the question he said was, a robot is going to come to a Christian or come to a church and say, can I too be made in the image of God? Basically, can I be included in the Jesus story? Can I be a part of all this? Now, here's what I think is especially fascinating. I didn't even answer this question in the clip that I shared. It was just the question.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:47]:
And it wasn't even my question. It was me referencing someone that I heard asked the question. And I titled it, you know, a question that the church isn't ready for. And because I would say right now, Christians have no idea what our response would be to this. And the responses that I got from this clip kind of amazed me. The vast majority of them were people telling me no. You know, just either just simply the word no or no and why they were telling me no. And in some Cases, they would give a reason, they would explain a little bit.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:21]:
But I started to realize some trends, some patterns, if you will, in the conversations that, That I was seeing online and some of the comments. So I want to share a number of these comments with you, and we'll. We'll just process it together. First category I would put these in, or the not everyone appreciates this conversation category. You ever. You ever talk about something and you realize, oh, I'm. I'm more excited about this than other people are. And maybe you have a few of those.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:52]:
Those subjects that you just go to, right? This was, this was one of those conversations, evidently, for a lot of people are like, oh, you. You don't appreciate this conversation and you don't think we should be having it. For example, here's. Here's a few comments. One person said, you are some of the most unserious people I've ever stumbled upon. I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of. A lot of unserious people online.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:11:21]:
I'm pretty sure a conversation about the ethics and morality of robots is not the most unserious you've ever stumbled upon, but perhaps. Another comment said, someone smoked a joint this morning. I did not, in case you were wondering. Another person said, y'all shouldn't have a podcast, okay. Another person wrote, I'm getting brain damage just listening again to this question. And then one that kind of threw me for a loop was, there are children that need foster homes and adoptive placements, and we are wasting time talking about this nonsense. Now, I. I wasn't quite sure what the ethics of robots has to do with foster homes and adoptive placements, but I, you know, happen to know a little bit about that topic as well.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:12:20]:
We have fostered and adopted two of our kids. And I responded that comment and said, yeah, no, I'm. I'm familiar with that conversation, too. Not sure how. I can only talk about one thing, you know, like if. If I'm a. If I'm pro fostering kids and adopting them, like, that's all I ever get to talk about again. Like, there's no other subject.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:12:40]:
So I was a little. A little confused on this. But, you know, we can just chalk that up to Internet trolls, right? Or just Internet haters. And you go, yeah, you know, no big deal. Anything you post is going to get those kind of comments. But then there was other comments that I started to notice that they had a tone to them. Like, that's the only way I could say it. There was, like, this underlying vibe to it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:02]:
One person said, I would have zero problem telling a robot that it has no soul and is just lights and clockwork. Like, there's almost like a. An arrogance in that, right? Like, like I would enjoy this conversation with a robot. I would enjoy putting the robot in its place. Another person said, robots are and always will be appliances, not people. So again, like, hey, you'll never matter. This will never be something where you'll be anything of value. Now you can almost hear the disdain, the hostility in these statements, right? You can just feel it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:47]:
And then there were some that seem to be aware of this tone, like, hey, maybe we should check this. Maybe this isn't a healthy way to respond to this conversation. As someone said, people who can only see robots as less than sentient are the same people who justify animal testing because they think they don't feel either. Which I thought was a really insightful comparison, right. That I would argue animals are not made in the image of God. But I would also say just because I've concluded that does not mean that you shouldn't value animals, shouldn't treat them with respect and dignity and that they're not of inherent value, right? But there are people that would say, well, animals can't feel you can do whatever you want to an animal. And, you know, certainly a lot of things, animal testing and all that would, would kind of fit into that category of, like, we can do whatever we want. They, they exist below us, therefore we have the freedom.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:14:44]:
Someone else said a little tongue in cheek, perhaps if the robot has money, the church will accept it with open arms, which is funny and possibly true, right? If the robot can tithe, there will certainly be a struggling church out there that is willing to say, you know what, let them in. Let. Let that money in. Because certainly there is a machine behind the evangelical church that I have seen firsthand, and it takes lots of money to run that machine. And if a robot can bring money, maybe this commenter is right. Now, as I've reflected on these different comments, I've. I've developed an epiphany, if you will. An insight, an aha.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:15:34]:
Like, oh, here's what this shows me. And my insight is primarily for Christians, so I wanted to make a disclaimer here. I. I'm talking to the Christians in the room for a moment. And if you're not a Christian, I just want to say I'm so glad that you're listening to this podcast or watching it. If you are exploring these ideas with us, that says a lot about you. And my hat's off to you. Like, I think it's awesome that you are engaging this with us.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:16:03]:
This is a podcast for you as well. I don't want you to feel excluded. I just want to challenge the Christians in the room for a moment so you get to be off the hook and you can watch the rest of them squirm for a second. As I figure out, what does this mean for those of us who would say we are trying to actively follow Jesus? Here's my epiphany. We have a problem with inclusion. We. We're not good at this. And it's, I think, deeper than I even realized.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:16:37]:
And as I've reflected on these comments to this one, you know, 60 second video, I've realized, oh, this is indicative of something in the water of Christianity that this isn't. This isn't just like some fluke thing. This is actually, if you pardon the pun, hardwired into much of what we believe. And I started to realize some comparisons, like Christians historically have often been the ones to come up with elaborate reasons why we're going to exclude certain groups of people. Like, we're the ones that have done this. And you can read throughout church history, we've done it very elaborately. Like, for example, I was thinking about women. Women have historically been excluded from the church and from church leadership positions.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:17:32]:
And this is still going on today. Now it's getting better. There are more people challenging this. There are more women available that have platforms now where they don't have to necessarily rely on the old means so they can show the world that they can bring just as much or more than any man. And so I do think we're, we're shifting this to the right direction. But historically, this has been an issue and continues to be for many churches and for many Christians. And you go, yeah, that's, that's not really a big deal, though. That was just like, that was kind of a fluky thing.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:18:07]:
Like, no, if you know church history, this, this was not like an accidental, like, oh, we, we forgot about the women. It was intentionally a position that was taken by many Christians. In fact, one of the most prominent early church fathers is a guy named Augustine. And Augustine you will hear quoted all the time, and especially if you're reading theology books, lots of Augustine's ideas will creep their way in. Augustine shaped theological ideas that the church has today. And most of us don't even know how to connect it back to him, but he was that influential. I want to read something Augustine wrote about his view of men and women as it pertains to being made in the image of God. Which, if you're paying attention, is the same theme that I was talking about in the clip about robots, right? Are they made in the image of God? Well, Gustin was reflecting on what does it mean for a male and a female to be made in the image of God.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:19:12]:
And here's what he wrote. This is called on the Trinity. And this is, this is wild. This is a thought that needs to be explored. So here's what Augustine wrote. The woman together with her own husband is the image of God, so that the whole substance may be one image. Now if I were to stop there, we'd say, great. Augustine is making room for women to be co bearers of the image of God.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:19:43]:
This is great. But if you keep reading, you realize that's not what he's saying. He says, he clarifies. But when she is referred separately to her quality of help mate, her role as Augustine thought, which regards the woman herself alone, then she is not the image of God. Did you catch that? Without the man, she is not reflective of the image of God. Now you may go. Okay, well, hold on. He made the argument that both of them are the image of God.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:19]:
So maybe he's just saying that male or female by themselves can't be. They have to be together, which would again be a better explanation for it. But that's not what he's saying as he goes on to clarify. But as regards the man alone, he is the image of God as fully and completely as when the woman too is joined with him in one. Did you catch that logic? And again, this is not fringe, people. This is St. Augustine, a big deal. In the history of the Church, Augustine's argument was that male and female together represent the image of God.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:03]:
But if you really break it down, it's not the woman because she's not by herself, it's the guy because by himself or with the female, the male is the one that shows the image of God. And this is the guy that shaped so much of our theology today. And we wonder why the Church has had a hard time including women. Because historically we've, we've gone to great lengths to figure out how do we exclude women so that they don't have an equal seat at the table. And people like Augustine have found all sorts of arguments to make to explain why, you know, women can't do that. And, you know, most common today, you'll hear people say, well, I think women can lead. Some would even say, can Teach. But they would just say they either can't be an elderly or they can't be a lead pastor.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:57]:
Or someone even said they can't be a pastor or they can't lead men. You know, there's all these qualifications because there's an aspect of Christianity that wants to exclude women. And I go, okay, well, that's just one example, right? Like, it's not like there's a pattern yet. Well, perhaps there is a pattern. If you look at other notable times in history that the church was also doing the same thing to create explanations as to why we were going to exclude certain people. For example, in the Civil War, the church was very active in defending slavery. In fact, you can study this. There's a great book, if you're interested.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:22:45]:
Mark Noll wrote a book called the Civil War as a Theological Crisis. And he unpacks in this book how theology was used for the north and the South. So we have to think about it. It's like it's just this political topic of, you know, slavery and these different groups. But no, there was a theology embedded in these ideas and the church was at the forefront of it. I'm gonna read a couple of quotes from this book that are just jarring to consider the role that Christianity played in justifying why we should be able to exclude certain people. Noel says this by defining slaveholding as a basic evil. The radical abolitionist frightened away from anti slavery many moderates who had also grown troubled about America's system of chattel bondage, but who were not willing to give up loyalty to scripture.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:23:44]:
So he's saying that these moderates wanted to say that slavery was evil, but they also wanted to have a high view of scripture. And they didn't think they could do both because they felt like scripture was so clear the way it was being presented. He goes on to say this. It was the background that permitted the Southern Methodist minister J.W. tucker to tell a Confederate audience in 1862 that, quote, your cause is the cause of God, the cause of Christ, of humanity. It is a conflict of truth with error, of Bible, with Northern infidelity, of pure Christianity, with Northern fanaticism. What he's saying is slavery is the Christian way. And he is literally saying this is pure Christianity.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:24:38]:
That's his phrase to argue the North. I mean, this is wild stuff. Noel goes on to say this. For over 30 years, Americans battled each other exegetically on this issue, with the more orthodox and the ones who took most seriously the authority of Scripture being also the ones most likely to conclude that the Bible sanctioned slavery. That is a haunting observation. The people most adamant about the scriptures, about having a high view of scriptures, were the ones most likely to argue for slavery. So we see that often the church has been on the forefront. Christians have been the ones to come up with reasons why we should be excluding certain people.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:25:35]:
Today we see it, especially with the LGBTQ + community. Often you will hear Christians as the one to explain why people in the LGBTQ + community cannot fully participate in the life of the church. They can attend, they can maybe serve sometimes, but they usually can't teach, they usually can't lead. They cannot have full participation like most other people can. And we start to see this pattern over and over, that it's often the church, it's often Christians who are the ones to figure out all the reasons why we have the right authority to tell others that they're not fully included like we are. And I wonder, are robots just the next example of this tendency in Christianity? Are they just the new medium for this conversation, for this tendency? We have to find reasons to exclude people, and we're now going to apply it to them. Now, I don't think we need to answer Kevin Kelly's question right now. I don't think we're ready for it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:26:48]:
And I had to reassure a lot of commenters that, look, I'm not saying the technology is there. It may never even get there. But I think as a thought experiment, it reveals a lot about our Christianity. If we can envision this conversation with a robot, we can at least envision what we would say. And our answers are very revealing to the type of Christianity we are experiencing, the type of Jesus we are following. And I would suggest a lot of the reasons why people said no that we would have to exclude robots. Those reasons don't actually make much sense. And I didn't realize this was a hot take going into this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:27:33]:
But evidently, I'm much more comfortable with robot inclusion than most people are. And maybe that's just because I've spent more time thinking about this conversation, or maybe that's just the way I'm. I'm wired or how my theology plays out. But for a lot of people, I'm realizing this is a huge hot button issue. But then there was a few comments that showed me it won't stop with robots either. It's not like, well, we're going to get all these things worked out, and then we'll finally, you know, we'll finally get to a place where we figured out how to stop excluding people. No, we're going to keep. We're going to keep figuring out new groups to exclude.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:13]:
One comment said this, I'm more concerned for when clones start asking these questions. And I was like, well, there's a plot twist, right? Yeah. What if we start cloning people and then in the clone says, hey, am I made in the image of God and I'm a clone of another human? Right. And then we have to consider it in that situation. One commenter said something that I thought was great. They said, this is why I don't like Christianity. It not only does it say that animals have no spirits, but in the future, when we contact with aliens, y'all Christians are going to go crazy with space racism. Y'all will be like soulless abominations, foul pretenders of life.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:58]:
Satan's army draws near and try to start a crusade against them because they don't look like us, so they must not be made in the image of God. Now, that's a snarky view against Christianity, but I actually think he's onto something. He's pointing out we're the ones who exclude everybody. We're the ones who are known for this. We're the ones that find the reasons why other people cannot be included. And perhaps clones and aliens will be future examples of where this conversation goes along with robots. Now share all that to leave you with a few concluding thoughts that I have. I would even call them a few suggestions of a better way forward.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:29:47]:
So I'm not just going to leave you hanging, like, wow, what was us? We suck at this. Let's. Let's wrap it up. I'm going to give you a few thoughts that I think would make it better regarding Christianity and inclusion that I just encourage you to process. And if this whole subject is really hard for you, process these three and just maybe pray through them or give them a little bit of air time in your head if you're, like, on board with this conversation, like, yeah, this is no big deal. Let's get better at, these are going to be maybe easy for you. So here's a few things that I would take away from this. Number one, at a minimum, Christians should want for God to include as much of creation and salvation as possible.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:30:34]:
Okay? At a minimum, like, the. The least that we could do would be to want God to include everyone in always. Right? Even if you can't intellectually get there. Like, if you're like, hey, I just don't think that makes sense. Okay, can we at least foster the desire that you would Want everyone to be there and that you would go, yeah, I would want everyone to experience the fullness of Jesus. I would want women to fully experience it. I would want people regardless of your race or your background or your ethnicity. Yeah, I would want everyone to fully experience this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:31:16]:
I would want people who have a different sexual identity than me to fully experience Jesus. I would want robots and clones and aliens. I would want everyone to experience the fullness of God. Right. Why would you not want that? For as much of creation as possible. Okay, that's number one. Number two, inclusion doesn't negate redemption. Okay? Just because we say that some group is now included doesn't mean that there's no issues with things that they believe or things that they do.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:31:57]:
Because news alert, this applies to all of us. Right? There are things that I do and things that I believe that are probably problematic and that Jesus is working on and that just like, hey, yeah, you are convinced of this thing and that's not great. And you're, you know, got some things here that I'm trying to bring out the best in you. And Jesus is continuing to redeem me, to bring out the best version of me as Jesus will do with all people. So just because we say, well, yeah, but if we include them, what about, yeah, what about us? What about you? What about me? I got all sorts of baggage and if I could be included and Jesus can bring out the best in me. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Jesus can keep doing that with any group that we're going to include in this story, in the, in the whole big net of salvation that we're extending to others. And number three, I would say this, even if we are wrong in the specifics, inclusive Christianity fosters a more Jesus looking face. Even if I'm wrong, believing that Jesus is going to include everyone makes me more like Jesus.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:10]:
Now, I may be wrong on the specifics. I may at the end find out, oh, I applied this too broadly. But I would argue that I would rather be inclusively wrong than exclusively wrong. Meaning if I'm going to err on either side and I could be wrong either way, I would rather be wrong because I included too many people or too many groups than saying I was wrong because I excluded too many, I don't want to be there at all. And I think if you look at it like that, like we could be wrong either way. But which would you rather be wrong on? That you have to have a conversation with Jews, like, yeah, I'm sorry I tried to save everybody everything. I mean, anything I came in contact with. I thought it was like part of your creation that you wanted to like, fully include.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:34:00]:
I would much rather make that argument than make the argument of no. Let me tell you the great logical reasoning I came up with why I was going to exclude this group or that group. And I think we can. We can experience and participate in a better Christianity, a different Christianity, but it will require us to challenge the tendency we have to be so quick to exclude different groups of people or robots or whatever we're talking about so quickly because we're going to be so convinced they could not participate. And I just want to encourage you think bigger than that. What if we desired for Jesus to save more of creation and we figured out how does our imagination catch up with that? And then let's learn to figure out ways to explain that rather than justifying anything that looks different than us, we're going to push away. I think there's a way better way to live out our faith. It'll make you look like Jesus more and it'll include a whole lot more people in the good news that we believe.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:35:19]:
Let's try it out.
