Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:00]:
Welcome to another episode of Cabernet in Prey. Today. Our guest is Andrew Whitehead. Andrew is a professor of sociology and the executive director of the association of Religion Data Archives at the center for the Study of Religion and American Culture at Indiana University, Indianapolis. That is. That is quite a. Quite a job title to try to explain. He is the author of a number of books.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:27]:
The one we're going to address on the episode today is called American Idolatry. How Christian Nationalism Betrays the Gospel and Threatens the Church. He's also the lead author of a book called Taking America Back for God. And just an incredibly thoughtful individual, but he's also a lot of fun. And I think you're gonna enjoy this episode as we get into some big ideas, but in a very relatable way. And this is a topic that is extremely, extremely timely as we'll get into in this episode with everything going on in our country right now. Enjoy episode 34, American Idolatry.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:02:36]:
Welcome to the podcast, Andrew.
Andrew Whitehead [00:02:54]:
Hey, good to be with you.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:02:56]:
Well, before we dive in to your book and to some great, much needed topics today, as we do all of this, we're going to talk about what we are drinking. And I've got a big boy wine I'm drinking today. This is called Ghost Pines. This is a 2000 Cabernet Sauvignon from California. And it's, it's packing a punch. This is, I'm drinking it by itself. This is a wine that needs, it needs a piece of meat, I think, to really, to really shine. Very heavy.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:29]:
I'm getting black cherry, BlackBerry, black pepper. Just any fruit or ingredient with black in front of it probably fits here. It's got big tannins. Like, immediately I was just like, okay, we're, we're doing this. So this is my welcome to fall in Arizona. The weather is finally nice. I'm drinking big boy red wines. It feels right.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:52]:
Andrew, what do you got in your glass today?
Andrew Whitehead [00:03:55]:
Well, I am a much more of a lightweight than you, so this is what you can get at pretty much any supermarket in the United States. 20, 21. So just recent Federalist Cabernet. And this is the one where they age it, apparently for six months in bourbon barrels. Yeah. So it's a, it's a pretty easy drink. And I wouldn't really know how to describe wine to the extent you did, but always enjoy a glass of red.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:26]:
So, hey, that's, that's what it boils down to. There's wines you like and wines you don't, and the rest is just, just fun, fun details. So, as we begin, before we get into some quotes that I want to ask you from your book, I have a question that I like to ask guests. And this gives us a framework of who you are, a little bit about your journey, and also I think a really helpful way to understand Christianity in that we're always changing and growing. So my opening question is, as you look at, let's just say the last 10 years, how has your faith changed over the last 10 years?
Andrew Whitehead [00:05:01]:
Oh, that's such a great question. And that's a big one to start with, too. So, first of all, now that I'm, you know, into my 40s, early 40s, 10 years just seems to go so quickly. So now I need to think about where was I and what was I doing 10 years ago? And I think I was in the second job out of grad school. So I graduated from Baylor in 2012 to PhD and we lived in Alabama for a year and then moved to Kentucky for a year. And so I think we were in Kentucky at that point and just getting ready to move after a year there to Clemson, South Carolina, which I was there for six years. So there was some hopping around to different jobs. And so, you know, I think a lot of the big changes in my faith journey happened in undergraduate studies and then in graduate school.
Andrew Whitehead [00:05:50]:
So I grew up in a really kind of conservative Christian area in Northern Indiana. And then as I left that area and went to college and grad school, that was where I really started to recognize some of what we had been taught and loving our neighbors versus how that was kind of lived out right with these groups, how we voted, what were important issues, all of those things. And so I started to see that disconnect between how we should love everyone, love our neighbors versus maybe, you know, loving everyone kind of ended at certain political, you know, boundary lines or certain racial or ethnic groups, you know, whether they're American citizens, are not all these things. And so that was where I really started to unpack some of that. And then the other part that has really influenced my faith, that has less to do with the My work on Christian nationalism or American Idolatry. And I've published a little bit of this in my research. But I have three kids and two have pretty severe intellectual disabilities. And so my faith really had to reckon with that as well.
Andrew Whitehead [00:06:58]:
And I think those are linked because I think the Christianity of Christian nationalism is one that is about power, is about winning and victory and all of these things. And that type of faith really didn't give me the tools I needed to walk through deep valleys with children who are disabled. A God of victory and winning and all those things. Just the idea of disability and pain and all those things really don't go with that picture of God or that Christianity. So I think I had to unpack a lot of that, and a lot of that has happened in the last 10 years, too. So that kind of sets a lot on the table for us. But that's really where I appreciate how you talked about it, and I kind of talk about it in this way in the book and with everyone I've interacted with since then. About the book and my work is that we're all on a journey.
Andrew Whitehead [00:08:00]:
And even where I'm at now, a year and two months after the book came out, I'm not the same person I was then. I'm pretty similar. But it is a journey. It's continuing forward and, you know, finding new, new roads and people to journey with. And I think that is so key. And that's been key. So that's another big thing that I think has changed about my faith, is recognizing it's not really a dest at all. And we've never arrived.
Andrew Whitehead [00:08:26]:
I have more questions now probably than ever. And so, yeah, that's kind of the longer answer to your, to your startup question.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:35]:
Great, that's. I love how you connect even your kids and their, you know, challenges to these ideas, the Christian nationalism and the ideas of winning and victory. And I hadn't necessarily ever connected those together. We have similar. We have five kids and one of them has very, very challenging mental health. Things that we have had to journey with. And so probably similar to you, we've had a lot of these things where you realize the, even the church isn't equipped. We don't have the right answers.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:06]:
We don't know how to really support families going through this. And, you know, we had fostered and adopted, and I would say everyone in Christianity loves that idea. Like, the idea of fostering is great. The idea of adoption is great. When you actually do it and then you bring all these challenges into your home and then you need help. You're like, hey, we, here's what we're dealing with, you know, and then people are like, oh, we don't, you know, we don't know how to relate with that. Or that's, that's not something that, you know, we have any experience in. You go, oh, okay, this is, this is challenging.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:34]:
So I actually love that as a setup, the practical reality somehow oftentimes reveal the theology. Right?
Andrew Whitehead [00:09:43]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:43]:
People, you know, sometimes like, why do you spend so much time talking about theology?
Andrew Whitehead [00:09:47]:
It.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:47]:
It affects how we live out our faith and relationship and with real people.
Andrew Whitehead [00:09:53]:
Oh, yeah, totally, man. I mean, theology, right, is, is thinking about God and thinking about these kind of ultimate questions, you know, the way I think about it and how, you know, the day to day, I'm sure for you all too, you're kind of meeting needs as they arise, and you really can't look any further than what's right in front of you. But then there are moments where all of a sudden you look up and you, to see, you know, the vista. Right. Of what it is. Indiana, we don't have really great vistas. Maybe Arizona is beautiful. But, you know, you see the horizon and you wonder what's there.
Andrew Whitehead [00:10:26]:
And the existential aspect of what you're doing kind of comes into play. And those two kind of intention make it difficult. But you have to be thinking about, well, how does this picture of God relate to this moment right now that's happening? Because I do feel alone or the tools I was given, they don't make any sense in this moment. And so what do we do then? Right. And what if. Yeah. What have humans been doing for millennia? Right. Thinking about God together.
Andrew Whitehead [00:10:59]:
And what else is the Bible other than this picture of people wrestling with that?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:11:04]:
Love it. Okay, so let's dive into some of these ideas. There's so much. I had to just pick a few that I thought would give us a good launching pad. So here's. I'll read a quote and then we'll have you elaborate on it. You write this. Imagine Christian nationalism as a pair of glasses through which Americans see and experience their social worlds.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:11:28]:
At one end of the spectrum, these glasses are relatively clear. These could be folks who reject white Christian nationalism. Moving from one end to the other, an orange tint becomes more noticeable. I thought your color choice there was. Was interesting, by the way. An orange tint becomes more noticeable intensifying the further along you go. Those who wholeheartedly embrace Christian nationalism see a world awash in a deep orange hue. For some Americans, the world they see has very little orange tint.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:12:02]:
They believe behave and live accordingly. But for other Americans, all they see is a deep orange, which obviously signals something quite different to them, altering their behaviors and attitudes. Now, I want to add a preface here. Andrew and I were talking about this before we started recording. We are recording this literally the day before the election. This will be posted and there will be an outcome that we currently don't know as of this recording. So if you're watching, listening to this, you're like, hey, some of these comments sound a little weird given what just happened in the last two weeks. We don't know what has is about to happen.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:12:43]:
So we're going to talk about things that obviously pertain to an election that is happening tomorrow as we're recording this. But as you listen to, this is going to be revealed. So just want to put that disclaimer in. I love this, this metaphor of the lenses. I love how it captures the reality that I think many people have and I have certainly had this where you can Talk to someone who you love, who you respect, who you have deep relationship with. And it is as if you are looking at two completely different things. And for many people, and I hear this all the time, many people are like, what do I do with this? Like, I'm. I'm trying to either logically talk through something or emotionally talk.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:27]:
And it's just like, we're not. We're not even talking about the same things. You've given us a metaphor to use to go, well, how could that be? So my question is, I think everyone's going to go, yep, that's a great way to think about the question is, how have you found it helpful when you realize you're talking to someone and you're like, oh, they've got the tinted glasses on. Is there something that cues up in your mind of like, all right, here's a pivot in the way I'm going to approach this conversation because I'm going to acknowledge we could talk about the same exact thing and we're going to see it differently. What insights have you learned in exploring that idea?
Andrew Whitehead [00:14:06]:
Yeah, that's a really great question. You know, I think one of the things that the metaphor is helpful with, and I actually went back and forth when writing the book where when I was talking about one side is an orange tint and the other side had a tent as. As well. Right. So resistors and rejectors, it was a color as well. I went back and forth because when I say that, it's clear. It's kind of this assumption that, well, oh, resistors and rejectors, they don't have lenses through which they're seeing and experiencing their social worlds, which is not true. Right.
Andrew Whitehead [00:14:37]:
Like, all of us have cultural frameworks that are in front of our eyes that are refracting the light. Right. I mean, all of us have been given cultural packages, whether we're more progressive or maybe more in the middle or more conservative in our faith, politics, whatever. And so the one thing I've not necessarily learned since then, but always want to stress too with this, is that in owning myself, is recognizing that all expressions of Christianity are shaped by cultural forces like Christian nationalism. There are other things. Now, are they all equally as influential in the United States? No. Are they all as detrimental to democracy right now? I would say no. Empirically, we see there are some that are more influential, detrimental, all those things.
Andrew Whitehead [00:15:29]:
So the first thing that I've kind of learned in interacting is recognizing that, being able to explain that this isn't as though, oh, we are enlightened we don't have any sort of lens through which. And all of those other folks, them, they're all wrong. I think being able to articulate that all expressions of Christianity, and there are dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands in the US Come with these different cultural kind of elements to it. But right now, there's one that's really influential with people in powerful positions with millions of Americans. And we have the data that show empirically that it's more harmful to what a lot of Christians see as loving our neighbors. And so I think when we're in those situations, talking with folks, there's a number of ways it can go. One is that sometimes there are opportunities for good faith discussions. So I've had folks that are like, hey, I tend to be a lot more conservative, but I recognize that you too are a Christian like me.
Andrew Whitehead [00:16:33]:
And so let's wrestle with this together. And then I think bringing empirical evidence or what I've found in my research or share in the book, you know, can make. Can make for a good discussion. Right. And give them things to think about. And we may also ask them questions. And I think that's key, asking questions to hear from them, because that can shape how we see the world. And they, you know, may bring up really good points we have to wrestle with.
Andrew Whitehead [00:16:59]:
But there are times where, like you said, we may be talking with someone and it's like, okay, we're speaking different languages or we're seeing a little completely differently. And what we find empirically in some studies is that in those moments, you know, facts or empirical data actually don't work to change people's minds. They actually push further, deeper in and like, entrench themselves. And so in those moments, it really doesn't work to be like, well, this is what we know about Americans that embrace Christian nationalism. They tend to embrace political violence and da, da, da, da. It's just not going to make an influence on how they see their world or see the issues at hand. So I think in those moments, to the extent that we can, being in relationship and asking questions, a lot of times can do the most good. Learning and hearing and those folks feeling heard, right.
Andrew Whitehead [00:17:53]:
The people that we're with, I think is important. And then two, asking questions, because I found in my own journey and story that it was the questions that did the most to really kind of make me have to wrestle with the implications of what I'd been handed. Right? So, oh, if this is a Christian nation, why did we enslave black people for hundreds of years, ripping families apart? Why did we slaughter indigenous populations that were here before us if we were truly Christian? Those types of things I had to really wrestle with. And that has caused more of like, well, maybe this isn't a Christian nation. Maybe we have to think deeply about the Christianity that tries to get enshrined in power, all of that. And so those might be more useful in the situations where people aren't really interested in hearing the reasons why you believe something. But maybe you can offer them a question that they can take with them that may come back, you know, in a week or two. But I think too there are moments where it really isn't worth spending a lot of time in discussion.
Andrew Whitehead [00:18:55]:
And so you have to kind of know where that line is to that it's not safe for you. It may not be safe for them emotionally, mentally, whatever. And then, you know, you find other things to talk about or maybe it just, you know, the relationship goes in a different way for a while. I don't know. And so I don't want it to seem like folks have to stay in this discussion, but those are kind of the three things that I've learned or that may be helpful. Right.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:19:21]:
As we go along, you remind me I was, I was getting work done on my Jeep the other day and so I was waiting at the dealership and I'm like at a table and then there's like this sitting area and there was a number of people that didn't, you know, probably three or four different groups of people that didn't know each other, but they, one of them had a very provocative Trump shirt on. And I think it was like Trump with the middle finger or something. And someone else commented like, oh, I love your shirt. And that started this conversation where, you know, I'm just kind of like listening in on it and they just start, I mean, just dunking on everything remotely opposed to Trump. Then another person jumps in, another person jump in. And I'm listening like four, this four way conversation that's like this snowball taking off. And you know, it was just so interesting listening to the conversation again. I'm like, like just next to it at its little table and I'm just listening.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:12]:
And you know, it is, it is as much of like, you know, progressives are the dumbest humans in the world and can you believe the things that they're saying and all this. And they caricaturized anyone who would, who would not see it the way they, they saw it. And Andrew, I don't know what, what it was about me that day I had a split second moment where I thought about literally just like, introducing myself and just saying, hey, I'm the guy that you're talking about. Like, just wanted you to know, like, we do exist. Like, people who don't see it the way that you see it. Then my immediate thought was, do I want to spend the next, I don't know, hour or two that I got to wait for my Jeep to be done with whatever would follow from that? And I was like, no. I think for my mental sanity, I'm just going to let this one, you know, go. But there are moments you just go like, yeah, that's, like, for me, I was like, that's probably not going to be helpful.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:04]:
Whereas if it's someone I'm in relationship with, I think asking the deeper questions, that's. That is a very different way to look at it.
Andrew Whitehead [00:21:12]:
Yeah, yeah, totally. And I think, you know, one thing that happens as well is I know there are times where when I'm around two or three people that think or I know, think like me, or there's some sort of signal, it is easy to get in that kind of echo chamber, right? Where it's like, oh, can you believe them? And there are moments where I'm just like, I. How. How can folks see the world so differently? Doesn't make sense. Which echoes, right, what you had heard. And so then it's just so difficult to know. Or it is part of the challenge of really not obviously dehumanizing or to say that they're just all written off. But, like, how.
Andrew Whitehead [00:21:51]:
How do we do this? And we're in a difficult moment. I don't know if I have answers either of how we walk some of this back, because a shirt with a political candidate in the middle finger, that's wild. Like, I'm. I mean, I'm in my early 40s. It's not. I'm not that old. But like, I remember as a teenager, you know, Even in a 20, my 20s, like, political candidates just didn't talk like that. Like, that was not a part of our political, you know, rhetoric.
Andrew Whitehead [00:22:21]:
We. You just wouldn't think to do that either side.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:22:25]:
Well, and the irony is they all, you know, they all were probably 60s and above, you know, so this, right. This is not like all these bunch of wild teenagers over there, you know?
Andrew Whitehead [00:22:37]:
Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it's a difficult moment. And I think I would have made the same choice. There's times where I'm just like, I'm putting in my headphones and head down.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:22:50]:
Okay, so just because of my curiosity. Did the color orange, was that the obvious color for you to use there? Did you, did you debate which color to use?
Andrew Whitehead [00:23:00]:
I think I have to go back and look at early dress, but I'm pretty sure in the earliest draft I just use, I wanted a color, so I just used orange. And. Yeah, what do you prompt the Holy.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:23:11]:
Spirit or what do you think prompted the orange?
Andrew Whitehead [00:23:13]:
Yeah, I don't know, maybe just a little bit of a troll.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:23:17]:
I literally read that. I was like, all right, well done.
Andrew Whitehead [00:23:20]:
Everybody knew. I'm not fooling anybody.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:23:23]:
Okay, here's another one. This is a term I had not heard before and I've already used this one in conversation because this is, this is so powerful. Okay, so you say this political scientist. I'm going to butcher this name, Paul de Jupe provide.
Andrew Whitehead [00:23:38]:
Yeah, Jup.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:23:39]:
Provides a helpful concept to describe this effect of fear, the inverted golden rule. The inverted golden rule stipulates expect from others what you would do unto them, which is so good. For many Christians, fear of losing cultural and political power makes them want to restrict other groups civil rights precisely because they fear this is how these groups might treat them. So if you're, if you're a little confused on that, basically I'm going to preemptively harm you the way I'm anticipating you are going to harm me. And so I don't even let you get to it because if I have the chance now, I'm going to do what I, I'm assuming you're going to do to me, which is such a dark way to live your life. And as you're, you know, obviously talking about this is antithetical to the gospel, to what any of us following Jesus should do. But this is so profound and it's like you just go, yeah, that's exactly what it is. How would you just elaborate on this? How do you see this in us? Like, do you see it on a personal level? Do you see organizationally how, how does this affect us?
Andrew Whitehead [00:24:56]:
Yeah, I, that was such a useful concept that, that Paul introduced. And you know, I think it really is central to that idol of fear as an element of Christian nationalism. Right. Where we want power because we know that that'll protect our interests, however those might be defined. And again for the history of the US that's elevating a particular expression of Christianity over and above any other expression or other religion or those of no religion. So we want this power and really it's a self interested power to be able to make others do what we want. Them to despite their resistance. But the second you have that type of power, you're going to be afraid it's going to go away.
Andrew Whitehead [00:25:38]:
Right? Because that's the history of the world, right? Those get power, but they're not always in power. And so we have a fear and this sense of threat. And when you have fear and sense of threat, you're creating stronger boundaries around who is in and who is out. And one way to create those boundaries and police those boundaries is to create fear and sense of threat for those on the outside. And so, yeah, a common kind of trope with that is we the only way we can protect ourselves is if we keep those other groups down, if we execute that self interested power. And for the history of Christianity in the United States and even before is really kind of cultivating that sense of fear and threat and doing to these other groups, whether it's indigenous populations or racial ethnic minorities. And in the book, right, I kind of cite a lot of these different historical moments. Whether we're looking at Japanese internment camps or the Alien and Sedition act or cracking down or Jim Crow south or slavery or whatever, we see it over and over, Christians arguing from their Christian perspective that they need to act in this way because of the threat that these groups pose.
Andrew Whitehead [00:26:53]:
And so, yeah, as you know, I kind of write about, and as you were talking about, too antithetical to the gospel, where we're supposed to not move out against others, but before others, and even to the point that it might cost us. And this idea of the inverted golden rule, not doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, but doing to them what you fear they might do to you. And as we listen to the political rhetoric of today, you hear this over and over and over, right? Like these groups are going to come and they're going to take away our right to pray or read the Bible or whatever. And we have empirical evidence of this, right, that as we did interviews for our first book or the one I wrote with Sam Perry, you know, folks were telling us like this was during the first Trump administration. They were just glad that they could say Merry Christmas again. And they never couldn't say Merry Christmas. But the way they were, they were thinking and seeing it is like, no, we were persecuted. We could not do that.
Andrew Whitehead [00:27:53]:
And so we need to get into power and make sure that those seculars or whoever else don't take away our Bibles or take away our right to celebrate religious holidays or whatever else, because they're going to obviously do that to us or they already have. And fear is such a powerful political motivator. It is probably the most powerful one. It's going to get people out. And that's all this has ever been about, is getting people out and giving them at least one wedge issue to where they just have to vote this one way because of this one thing. And that's what's really contaminated so much of our political dialogue, whether it's within congregations broadly in the United States. It's just harmed us so much because we really can't see the other side or people that differ from us as worthy and American, just like us. Can we have this conversation? No.
Andrew Whitehead [00:28:48]:
They're the enemy. They need to be put down. They need to be put away, all these things. And that really makes it hard for democracy to survive. Like, that's one of the threats for sure.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:28:59]:
When I, when I hear arguments like that, it, it personally makes me want to just, like, run for the hills, bury my head in the sand, be like, I want nothing to do with any of it. Right? Like, I want to remove myself from it. And theologically, if you look at different church traditions, you know, much of, like, Anabaptist theology has really leveraged more of that of like, all right, the best way to, to be Christ, like, is to remove ourselves from much of this. You know, where Anabaptists are, you know, hesitant to join into much of these kind of things. And so I teeter on that line where I, you know, I'm drawn there, but then I wrestle with it and you had something connected to this that I was like, ugh, he's right. But I don't want it to be right. And it's totally tied to the, the inverted golden rule. You say this.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:29:51]:
To pursue justice, Christians will have to seek and use power. Which is, Andrew, an unfortunate thing for you to point out because it's much easier to want to be, you know, head in the sand and also be pursuing justice somehow. But you're pointing out the obvious, like, look, if you're going to actually be in this work, you're going to have to seek and use power. Then you clarify this employment of power should rather benefit all people, especially our neighbors who have been harmed or overlooked. Christian nationalism, vision and use of power, however, is focused solely on extending and protecting a particular subset of largely white Christians cultural and economic interests. It is important to distinguish between the two uses of power to faithfully confront white Christian nationalism in our society and religious tradition. So it's one of the things, even on this podcast I've, I'VE gotten into different. You know, I did an episode, actually a couple episodes where I kind of pit Greg Boyd versus David Gushie and had each of them respond to each other.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:30:59]:
And it was kind of fun. And they. They both kind of saw this a little bit differently and, you know, pushed on each other. I guess my question is, how do we use power? Well, because it seems to me it goes wrong more than it is right, especially when Christians touch it. So I want to run from it, but there's probably that's not healthy. How. How do we. How do we get near it without it corrupting us?
Andrew Whitehead [00:31:28]:
Yeah, that is such a good question and one that, yeah, we have to continually wrestle with. And I think for me, in the course of writing the book and in my own journey, one way for those of us who have benefited for the most part, of being at kind of the center of this culture and society, so that's white Protestant Christians and men especially, is the more that we can listen to and learn from and follow the lead of those groups that have been pushed to the margins and maybe are being crushed by different systems and different things like that, we can listen and learn from them and follow their lead on how to change how the system operates. Right. And what to do about it. I think that's our best chance at faithfully using power, coercive power, in order to provide a common flourishing, a common good for all people. Because if they have access now to some of the benefits and rights of being citizens, a lot of beautiful things about living in this country, if they have access to that, too, it doesn't mean that I no longer have access. It just means I no longer have easier access or, you know, elevated or the only one that has access. So, you know, equality, the pithy phrase is equality feels like discrimination when you're accustomed to privilege.
Andrew Whitehead [00:32:51]:
Right. So the fact that everybody has access now, I might think, oh, I'm being discriminated against. That's not true. I still can vote. I can still get a job, go to school, have a family, do all the things that I've been able to do before. It's just now others have access to those benefits. And so I think when we're talking about power, it isn't as though Christians shouldn't use it. And I think actually the poll to say, well, I just opt out.
Andrew Whitehead [00:33:19]:
You can only do that if you're in a place of privilege. Those folks whose bodies and existences are politicized, like, think of in Springfield, Ohio, Haitian refugees, they don't have a Choice. Right. Their literal embodied reality is politicized. When they're said to be, you know, doing the things that they never did, they don't have a chance. Right. To just opt out. And so I think for white men, Christians, Protestants, for white Christians, you know, broadly, we can't just opt out.
Andrew Whitehead [00:33:53]:
We have to take a side. And it doesn't mean that we're always voting one way or the other, but we have to recognize that to pursue justice, that is to take part in politics. Right. It's having a say about how we're going to distribute power in this country, which is a good thing. We're grateful for it, and it is powerful, you know, in a sense. Right. Like, it can go sideways really quickly. It doesn't mean we'll always get it right.
Andrew Whitehead [00:34:20]:
But I think listening and learning from those who have been crushed allows us to set aside or to see with a new perspective. And I think that is really the key part, because, yeah, those folks don't get a chance just to opt out. And so I think we need to be a part of it. So, like, the example to end this kind of comment is when we look at the civil rights movement as one great example, they were pushing for equal rights and access to the vote. It didn't mean that white Americans could no longer vote. We all got to vote, but now everybody gets to vote. Right. So that's the use of coercive power, because there were white Americans that did not want to allow minorities to vote.
Andrew Whitehead [00:35:02]:
But the Voting Rights act was coercive power applied, but to the benefit of all, to the benefit of the common good, flourishing. Does it create uncertainty? Does it change how things operate? Yes, right. It does, but it does so in a way that creates a more equal and just society. And that, I think, is what we should be focused on.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:35:24]:
Well said. Can you tackle an idea here that was done so well and worded so well? So it's kind of a long quote I want to read, but I didn't know how to shorten it because I think that there's so much in this, and this is something that, in my experience, I. I don't think we talk about this enough, and it should be fairly obvious why we don't, because it makes those of us who are white very uneasy to address this. But you, you say this so well. So I'm going to read this and I'm going to share part. Part of my story where I was like, oh, I wish I would have understood this, the way you're explaining it a few Years back, you say racial and ethnic minorities embrace white Christian nationalism, which. I'll read that sentence again because it's kind of. At first, it's confusing.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:36:14]:
Racial and ethnic minorities embrace white Christian nationalism. It is not limited to white Americans alone. It is important to mention here how the white of white Christian nationalism does not necessarily refer to the skin color or racial identity of an individual American who might embrace it. Rather, it refers to whiteness. The values, habits, beliefs, behaviors and attitudes that result in the organization of society in such a way that white Americans as a group tend to have greater access to power, privilege, wealth, and other benefits bestowed by various social institutions. Therefore, non white Americans can still participate in and perpetuate systems or cultural frameworks such as white Christian nationalism that serve to uphold a racialized society in which one group tends to benefit at the expense of other groups. So, well said. I mean, I got this section.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:37:19]:
I was like, wow, that was amazing. Real quick, how this intertwined in my story. I was a lead pastor in 2020 in Oregon, and in, you know, that was when all of the George Floyd thing happened in Portland became a hub for much of that conversation. People are literally like, rioting downtown. And I was like, hey, we as a church, we are a church in the suburbs. But I'm like, we need to, like, lean in to what is going on in our community that not only is our nation talking about, but in particular Portland was. Was very vocal into all of that. And I was opposed in wanting to do this by a black member of the leadership in our church.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:38:01]:
And her skin color negated much of what I was saying where she's like, look, we don't need to be talking about this. He needs to just preach Jesus, you know, and it was like, well, she's black, you're white. She's saying we don't need to. So therefore this. You're the one making a deal. And like, literally the amount of credibility I lost on that was staggering. And at the. And at that moment, I didn't know how to, like, make sense of that because I.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:38:27]:
I was like, maybe I am off. You know, make. Like this obviously affects her more than it affects me, but she's saying it's not a big deal. I. I don't know. And it took me a while and took. Actually, another friend of mine who's black explained it to me after the fact, and I was like, oh, he started unpacking that for me. But you here are talking about whiteness as a shared thing that anyone can tap into.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:38:52]:
And I think that's such a helpful distinction to make. It is not just the color of my skin, although obviously, more people who are white embrace whiteness. Right. But you're pointing something out that, again, I don't think we talk about a lot. You see all sorts of people embrace this for their own reasons. Help us understand that. Because often this gets used. And then, you know, like, I've seen Trump do this where, you know, it's like he'll get a black spokesman to come up, and then suddenly the argument is, well, clearly Trump is pro black, because here's this black man saying, you know, he supports him, and then it just negates so much.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:39:30]:
But what you're saying is, no, actually look for whiteness, not just the color of his skin. Can you talk more about that?
Andrew Whitehead [00:39:39]:
Yeah, yeah, I think that is key. So a lot of times when we're talking about Christian nationalism, we do append it with white Christian nationalism.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:39:46]:
And.
Andrew Whitehead [00:39:46]:
And the reason is, you know, as I wrote about, or you were talking about, it isn't just the color of our skin. You know, who's embracing Christian nationalism, but the white of white Christian nationalism is really looking at the systems in place. And do those systems in place in our society, our culture, do they benefit one group more than the other? And from before the, you know, advent of the U.S. and especially after, the systems that have been in place have primarily benefited white Americans, we see that in laws that were passed. Our Constitution itself, we also see that in the empirical data. Right? So if we look at maternal death rates or infant death rates, or we look at the criminal justice system or the death penalty, or we look at higher education, we look at home ownership, all of these figures point to the fact that as a group, white Americans tend to do better across all of those than racial minorities, whether it's black indigenous populations, Hispanic, Asian, whatever. And so when we look at this, what that's telling us is that there are systems in place, that it isn't that every single white American does better, but when we put all those folks together, on the whole, they do better. And why is that? And in white Christian nationalism provides an ideological framework to essentially say, well, how society works is ordained by God.
Andrew Whitehead [00:41:14]:
And they use, in many ways, a very individualized explanation. Well, it must be that the reason I am blessed is because I work hard or I follow Jesus. And so a lot of times, privilege gets equated to being blessed by God. Right. And so it's this way of turning the fact that it's easier. I'll explain it this way so as a white man, you know, doors have always kind of been open for me in this society that I didn't even know were there. Right. I was walking through doorways that I didn't recognize.
Andrew Whitehead [00:41:47]:
But other folks, when I listened to their stories, those doors were closed. They knew where the doorways were. So the systems that were in place tended to open those doors for me. It doesn't mean I didn't work hard, doesn't mean I didn't have to try. But those extra hurdles weren't in place. Right. Those doors weren't closed that I had to try and open myself. And so white Christian nationalism does this as well.
Andrew Whitehead [00:42:09]:
And so it doesn't matter our skin color if we embrace those explanations for the systems. Right. That, oh, as Christians, we should just be preaching Jesus. And that's it. That is a theological expression that is rooted in a very particular expression of Christianity that in many ways we have to work hard to think about. Well, where was this? Who were the theologians that were really explaining this? And some of them owned slaves, and some of them. Right. Argued for things that we would no longer say are true.
Andrew Whitehead [00:42:42]:
And does that influence how they saw the Gospel? Does that influence how they, you know, explain how the world should work? I think we have to wrestle with that. And so that's where, yeah, folks who are racial minorities might also embrace theological explanations and visions of Christianity that continue to uphold these broader systems that tend to harm larger groups of racial minorities or whoever else.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:43:10]:
And it's almost like no matter who you are, you can benefit from whiteness because the world is predominantly built on that. And so we're seeing certain people have the ability to tap into that. And, you know, the way one of my friends explained it to me is he said, you don't have enough black people in your church to make it worth her while to support you. And basically, she has more to gain by opposing you because she will get. Gather all the favor of all these people by doing what she's doing. And that, again, perpetuates whiteness, if you will, even though she's not white, you know, and it was like him explaining that of like, she's got more to gain and more to lose. You know, if. If she followed you and supported you, that I was like, oh, that makes a ton of sense.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:43:59]:
And it's just complicated because we want to just go, well, no, that doesn't. You know, look, but you're this. And, you know, I'm trying to. And I just. Yeah, I thought that that whole section, I was like, wow, that's not talked about a lot though, Andrew.
Andrew Whitehead [00:44:13]:
Yeah, well, and I mean your, your example and your story, I appreciate you sharing it because it's such a powerful illustration of that. Right. Proximity to power. In this sense, proximity to whiteness served her interests. Or, you know, for some racial minorities, it serves their interests individually, but does it serve the interest of the entire group or society as a whole? Right. We would say no. But, you know, why do some folks stay in certain relationships, Right. It may be proximity to that person.
Andrew Whitehead [00:44:48]:
They're willing to, you know, overlook, you know, the broader explanations of it because, yeah, they get power or privilege in that organization, community that serves their interests in the moment.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:45:00]:
It actually created empathy for her in my heart too, because I realize she has dealt with those, you know, closed doors her whole life and now saw an opportunity not to have one. Whereas for me, I haven't had those closed doors. So, you know, I mean, so it actually, ironically, I was able to be more empathetic where I went, okay, like, her journey has been very different than mine, and this is a moment where she is choosing not to. Not to embrace an obstacle in front of her, you know?
Andrew Whitehead [00:45:27]:
Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, and that's beautiful too, right? Empathy towards the journeys and stories of others. So as a. Yeah. A racial minority and a woman. Right. She has had much, much different path than we have had. Probably.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:45:43]:
Okay, one more quote and then I'll ask you some questions that'll be easier. So you say this, and I just thought, this again, this is such a great idea. God does not call us to efficiency. He calls us to be faithful before going to the cross to give up his life in order to complete his rescue mission. Jesus was deeply afraid. Dying must not have seemed like the most effective or efficient means to achieve the end goal. His disciples certainly felt this way. Most of them embraced fear at what Jesus sacrifice meant for them.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:46:14]:
Jesus, however, committed to trusting the upside down nature of God's kingdom, and he transformed the world in time. His disciples did the same. I love this because I feel like, I'll just say the American Evangelical Church is very much in love with efficiency. And it has been at the cost of faithfulness, I would argue. What are some ways you see this play out in real time? Where. Where are we choosing efficiency over faithfulness?
Andrew Whitehead [00:46:46]:
Oh, man, that is a big question. Diagnose, diagnose. White evangelical Christianity. Oh, you know, so much, I think that has harmed the white evangelical expression of Christianity. Tradition in the US in terms of efficiency is wrapped up in economics. Right. And so it Isn't always that way. But the push for, you know, power and privilege and buildings and people and all of those things, I think, cause us in many ways to overlook the harder path of sacrifice, whether it is economics or space or people or whatever else, that it isn't always about growing, showing growth.
Andrew Whitehead [00:47:36]:
Yeah. And so I think if we look back centuries, you know, economics are tied up into the choices that were made by Christians to argue explicitly for slavery or to argue explicitly for Jim Crow laws. Right. To keep segregation in place or to argue explicitly against, you know, whether it's, you know, government programs to help lift people out of poverty or even more recently, when we're looking at the American with Disabilities Act. Right. Christians arguing that churches and religious organizations should be exempt from federal guidelines and laws and rules to where, you know, they wouldn't have to put ramps in their church for disabled folks to be able to access those buildings. So we're looking at that, I think, efficiency in terms of economics, we see that can cloud judgment so quickly and in such seemingly, I guess, to me, but I'm coming from a very particular perspective. Obvious ways.
Andrew Whitehead [00:48:44]:
Right. And again, not all churches and organizations, but enough. Right. That in many ways, that's what we're known for. We would rather not try to take steps towards, you know, other kind of more empirically supported avenues for reducing unwanted pregnancies. Right. We'd rather just try to get, you know, abortion outlawed outright. But then we also see now that actually doesn't lower abortion rates in some states, it increases.
Andrew Whitehead [00:49:17]:
So we would rather not have to do the harder work of maybe, you know, taking some of these other avenues to reduce that. So there are, I think, a lot of examples, whether it's, yeah. Pro life stuff or economics and flourishing, you know, for minority communities or those communities like disabled folks. Yeah. That can really cloud our witness and make people look at the white evangelical church and think, what are they doing? Right. They claim this, but then we see how these other groups are treated, what's going on there? And I think in many ways it's. Yeah. The desire to keep the status quo, because that's been easiest, and that's what's benefited us the most for so many years.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:50:03]:
Well said. All right, we're gonna give you a pivot question, and then we'll go into what I call the speed round, which you don't have to.
Andrew Whitehead [00:50:10]:
All right.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:50:11]:
You don't have to go fast, but they're usually just things off the top of your head. So before we get there, I want to ask if I were to say to you with whatever description level with wine that you have, okay, if you think back, like, what was the best glass of wine you've ever had in your life or the best bottle you've ever enjoyed? Can you think about one wine in particular? Can you think about a setting? Can you think about who you're with? I love hearing the stories. You've got something ready? Let's hear it. What was it?
Andrew Whitehead [00:50:41]:
I do. All right. And so this will make you laugh because it'll totally show that, like, I have no clue what I'm doing, but it's like, in a very. Hopefully a heartwarming way. So I think it was 2017. There was a conference, international religion conference in Italy that I was able to go to. And then my wife was able to go with me. So, like, I had.
Andrew Whitehead [00:51:02]:
We had to pay for her trip. But mine, since it was for work, you know, my ticket and hotels were covered. So we, you know, we had had all of our kids at this point to a special needs. So this was, like, a chance for us to get away for. It was like, six days. Never been to Europe before together. Never been to Italy before. So we went, and so we're in Florence, and we had had this restaurant that somebody, a family friend had told us about.
Andrew Whitehead [00:51:31]:
It's called the Cat and the Fox. And so we went there one night, and we had never done this before, but since we're there, we're like, we're gonna. We're gonna just get a bottle of wine, Chianti with the meal, right? So we order, like, two different dishes of pasta. It was just amazing. And we enjoy this bottle of Chianti. And we went there one night. It was just magical, right? Just Florence in June. Were no kids, we're together.
Andrew Whitehead [00:51:58]:
It's amazing. And the next night, we had another night in Florence, and we were like, oh, should we find a new restaurant? But it was so magical. We were like, let's go back, right? We know it's good, and I know it seems lame, but we're just like, we know it's good. Let's go back and experience it one more time. So we went back, order the same food, bottle of Chianti, and I happened to, like, snap a picture of it secretly, you know, to see what the wine was. Because I was like, when I go back, maybe for, like, our anniversary or something, I'll. I'll find this wine and, like, order it, ship it, I don't care. Like, we'll just get it.
Andrew Whitehead [00:52:31]:
Because it was so magical. So that's the bottle that, you know, the experience, like, that was really magical. And I always remember. Now, here's the funny part. I get over here and I'm like, all right, so I'm gonna find this wine. Who knows where. Like, I type it in this, like, wine locator. It's available at, like, every single store in the United States.
Andrew Whitehead [00:52:52]:
It is available everywhere. Like, there is nothing, like, special or unique or, like, just distinctly Italian about this wine. I, like, could drive down the street, find it, bring it home, and we did, like, I still buy it today. I still enjoy it, but that's how little I knew. It was so magical. And that's my funny story with it. But, yeah, to this day, I'll see it in the store. It's the Da Vinci Chianti.
Andrew Whitehead [00:53:17]:
Like, you can find it everywhere, but they had it there, too. And so if you see that, just think of me and my wife.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:23]:
I love that story so much. I love that you. You started in Italy, so you're just, you know, everyone's thinking, this is going to be some stunning bottle.
Andrew Whitehead [00:53:34]:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:35]:
Oh, that's great.
Andrew Whitehead [00:53:36]:
I'm sure the restaurant, like, had very expensive ones, but, like, we're, you know, I'm a professor. I was assistant professor. We do not have money, so we're like, well, this, you know, entry level bottle of wine for the night. But, yeah, it's available. I love it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:50]:
But you. You still remember that night and you went back for round two. That's amazing.
Andrew Whitehead [00:53:55]:
Yep. Yep.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:56]:
Okay, a few questions that I like to ask everybody as we wrap this up. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
Andrew Whitehead [00:54:06]:
Oh, gosh. Okay, so this is a bigger kind of deeper one. But I used to believe that if you really did your best to, like, act morally, follow God's design, as kind of your community of faith would lay out all those things that life will generally work out for you, and I no longer believe that's true. Yeah, I think there are other things.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:54:34]:
Yes. Nice.
Andrew Whitehead [00:54:36]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:54:37]:
What do you see as the main issue facing Christianity in America today?
Andrew Whitehead [00:54:42]:
Oh, man. I mean, yeah, I guess it would come back to my work in a lot of ways, but I think the main issue facing Christianity in America today is how to love our neighbors without creating, without having to try and redefine what neighbor means. How can we create a more expansive definition of neighbor and not constantly, like, the teacher, you know, the lawyer in the parable, trying to say, well, who is my neighbor? I think that is the absolute real issue With American Christianity is constantly wanting to say, well, who is my neighbor?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:55:28]:
Jesus told a whole story about it and we still are missing it.
Andrew Whitehead [00:55:34]:
Totally, man. We're like, well, those people aren't. Those are not my neighbors.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:55:38]:
Read the story again maybe. What? Is something blowing your mind right now?
Andrew Whitehead [00:55:45]:
Oh, man, that's a great question. Okay, I have two. One sounds like kind of like cooler and sciencier, and then the other is just much more fun and kind of weird. So what's blowing my mind right now is. And I always kind of like circle back to this, but like the stuff that we find out in quantum physics where like two, two things at the quantum realm that are not physically near each other at all can mirror each other. Like, some of that stuff is just so wild. And so it's like, I don't quite understand it, but you read about it and it's just like, well, how's this? Yeah, so there's a way for me to think, like it's not like proof of, of God or a different existence, but it's so weird that it's like, okay, that something's going on there, right? So that, that part is kind of cool. So that blows my mind.
Andrew Whitehead [00:56:36]:
The other thing that right now is kind of weird thing, but I at some point got served a video on social media and I watched it. So now the algorithm is kicking it up for me. It's of dudes arm wrestling, right? Which is so weird. I'm not like a strong guy or anything. But that's kind of blowing my mind now is like I always want to see those videos of like a smaller dude where he knows what he's doing and can like work the physics enough. I mean, there are some points where it's just too big a difference. But yeah, so those times are clearly that one video at some point a couple weeks ago blew my mind enough that now I like know the names of a number of these world champion arm wrestlers. And I've seen it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:21]:
So for the record, your answer to that question is quantum physics in arm wrestling.
Andrew Whitehead [00:57:26]:
Arm wrestling? Yeah, dude, yeah, totally.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:29]:
That's. That's a great answer, Andrew. Okay, what's a problem you're trying to solve?
Andrew Whitehead [00:57:36]:
Yeah, I mean, I guess the, it's not a lame answer, but like the work that I'm working on with Christian nationalism, a problem of, I think, how, how can Americans live in a pluralistic, democratic society? Well, right. Whether it's our humanist, non religious neighbors or those of non Christian faiths, or different expressions of Christianity, how can we live Together towards a common good and a common flourishing. I think that's one problem wrapped up in that with my own story and my two boys with disabilities. How is religion wrapped up with ableism and disability views? Because families like ours, parents like myself or my wife, I don't want to speak for her, but it's hard and difficult. And so how can we serve those people better? And so I think those are the problems that I'm kind of focused on in my work right now and trying to do what I can in those moments.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:58:38]:
All right, Andrew, is there anything else you want to add as we wrap this up that I may not have asked you about, but we could not close the books on this until you address it?
Andrew Whitehead [00:58:48]:
Oh, man. You know, one thing that I often get asked at, like, talks that I give is like, what's giving you hope? Or how do you keep hope? Because studying this, I find that my role as a social scientist a lot of times is to help kind of diagnose name and then give the extent of the problem. And I'm not a pastor. I've never served like you. I don't have a theology or M. Div. Degree or M. Div.
Andrew Whitehead [00:59:14]:
Or anything like that. And so a lot of times I think a lot of the value I can add is really telling people kind of what the problem is and the extent of it, which can be kind of a dark place to just stay. But I kind of end the book this way. And it's something that I've been coming back to even as, you know, tomorrow the election takes place. We aren't going to know by tomorrow night what's true. And even after that, we know there's going to be shenanigans for two months until it's certified. Right? It's just going to take place. And so it can be really discouraging.
Andrew Whitehead [00:59:44]:
But what kind of gives me hope or that I try to stay in this with is that throughout human history, the story of God's people are living and trying to love our neighbors in the shadow of empire, right? And sometimes we've been more closely aligned with Empire and making it easier on some of us, but harder on others or other times we've all been under the heel of empire. But no matter what, and it can seem like this is dark in one way, but I think it actually gives me hope in the other, is that that's just the common human experience. There's always people trying to perpetuate evil and harm others. And so as Christians, there isn't anything unique about this moment, there have always been these moments. And so it kind of takes the. We didn't break anything, I guess. Right. It's letting ourselves off the hook.
Andrew Whitehead [01:00:39]:
The. This is the way the world has operated for se. We journey together and we try to stay faithful in the moments, the little things. But also when we have an opportunity to affect larger systems, we try to do that with the gifts we've been given. That's what we do and that's what's required of us. And I think for me, that gives me hope. So, yeah, a lot of times I get asked what gives you hope? In some ways, it's like what we're facing now is no different than any time before. And we're going to do what we can, where we can, however we can, and that is enough.
Andrew Whitehead [01:01:18]:
And that's what's required.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:01:20]:
So, yeah, it's a good note, good note to wrap it up on. All right. If someone's listening to you and they're like, hey, I like this guy, how can they find you, get connected with your work?
Andrew Whitehead [01:01:30]:
Well, I'm going to start entering myself into a lot of arm wrestling tournaments and so they can find me at.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:01:35]:
Their local tournament, social media to see you taking on the big guys.
Andrew Whitehead [01:01:40]:
Yeah, totally, Totally. Yeah. The skinny guy. So I am, you know, I'm on Twitter X. I don't know for how much longer just because of what's become, but I am on Instagram. I find that I'll probably stay there. And then I have a substack. Andrew whitehead, just my name.substack.com and so the newsletter is American Idolatry.
Andrew Whitehead [01:02:01]:
So I write there once or twice a month. And so it's not hopefully too much for folks, but they could kind of keep track of my work there and then, yeah, those are kind of the main spots if they want to keep track or to follow along.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:17]:
Well, Andrew, I just want to say thank you for taking time out of your day and love the work that you're doing. Love the way you're adding your voice into a much needed conversation and helping us navigate some gnarly stuff and giving us ways to engage it. And so I heartily recommend others check out American Idolatry and Andrew's work. And again, thank you taking the time to share with us today.
Andrew Whitehead [01:02:42]:
Hey, yeah. Thank you so much, man. I really appreciate this menu, what you're doing. It is fun and yet you dig into the deep stuff and I think that's everything. So, yeah, continued success. And thanks for. Thanks for the invite.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:56]:
Awesome. Well, everybody we'll catch you in the next episode of Cabernet and pr.