Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:00]:
Well, it is time for another episode of Cabernet and Prey. And today we have got a fun one. Today is an interview with April Ajoy. She is the author of Star Spangled Jesus, Leaving Christian Nationalism and Finding a True Faith. She's also a content creator and podcast host who uses humor to shine light on harmful, toxic, and sometimes just weird traits of American evangelicalism. After growing up an evangelist kid entrenched in Christian nationalism and working in conservative Christian media, she saw the harm that it caused firsthand. Still a Christian, she now uses her platform to expose the dangers of Christian nationalism while promoting a more inclusive faith. April has been featured on buzzfeed, cnn, Newsweek, and more.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:54]:
And she's been married to Beecher for 10 years, and they have two daughters together. This episode was a wild ride. So much fun. Just enjoyed April a ton and you're going to see why. We get into some great theology. She's got some great insights and a lot of laughter as well. So enjoy episode 36, Star Spangled Jesus.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:12]:
Welcome to the podcast. April.
April Ajoy [00:03:25]:
Hello. Thank you for having me.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:28]:
Well, it's great to. Great to get into this conversation with you and we've got lots of questions we're going to want to get to. So before we do that, we're going to talk about what we're drinking and this is going to be fun. I am drinking a 2016. I don't know how you say this close. Floridine. This is a Bordeaux blend from France. I'm a sucker for Bordeaux blends, which usually means it's Cabernet and Merlot.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:53]:
This one is 73% cabernet, 27% merlot. So this is a little bit more aggressive on the Bordeaux blends. I'm getting black, cherry, blueberry, violet, black pepper, lots of really interesting notes. It is 10:30 in the morning as I record this, my time. So this is. This was an aggressive choice I made today, April, to go with this wine at 10:30 in the morning, but I'm doing it. What are you got in your glass?
April Ajoy [00:04:22]:
Okay. I have to confess that I don't drink all that often because my spouse doesn't drink. So I'm drinking what was in my fridge, which is a peach flavored white wine. Just a generic white wine. It didn't specify from. Well, I bought it in 2024. I searched all over the bottle and could not find a date. I bought it in 2024 from the local liquor barn and it's from a winery in Ohio.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:51]:
Okay, There you go.
April Ajoy [00:04:53]:
I wish. I don't have much else to say.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:57]:
So have you had this wine before?
April Ajoy [00:04:59]:
I have, yes. It's good. I do like it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:02]:
It's a wine you like?
April Ajoy [00:05:03]:
Yeah, I like. I like fruity wines.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:07]:
I guess this is a judgment free zone. All right. A lot of people bring a lot of different opinions. And I always say it comes down to two things. There are wines you like and wines you don't like. And yes, beyond that is fun, but you have found a wine you like. So cheers to you.
April Ajoy [00:05:23]:
Thank you.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:24]:
Cheers to all of you, listeners or watchers of the pod, if you are also enjoying a glass with us today as well. All right, April, as we dive in, I've had a chance to read a lot of your journey in your book, but someone who's listening to you right now may not have had that. A question I love to open with for our guests, for everybody to kind of get a frame of like, who are we talking to? What's been a little bit of your perspective? And my opening question is, how has your faith changed over the last 10 years of your life?
April Ajoy [00:05:54]:
Drastically. The short answer, I guess the most big difference between how I thought 10 years ago and how I think now is I hold my faith and my beliefs very loosely. And I don't have this. I used to have this. Like, I know that, I know that, I know that. I know without a doubt it was very dogmatic and fundamentalist, even though I probably would have said I wasn't a fundamentalist. And now I am very open to the idea that I could be wrong. And I probably am wrong on some things, and I certainly have beliefs.
April Ajoy [00:06:30]:
But I, I think of faith is more impactful when it's used as a verb and we act out our faith and actually do things instead of trying to make sure everybody thinks and has the right beliefs. Because that. What does that do for the world? Nothing really.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:48]:
Yeah. You could just tell. You seem more freed up than the previous version of you. Maybe.
April Ajoy [00:06:55]:
Yes.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:55]:
Would feel.
April Ajoy [00:06:56]:
Yeah. No, I feel like, you know, back in the, back in the day when I was going to very evangelical churches, there was this real push to be like, you need to come to our church and believe what we believe so you can have freedom in Christ. Like, freedom in Christ was the thing that everyone strived for, that we all said that we had. We're like, well, yeah, I mean, sure, we don't do all these things that the world does, but we have freedom in Christ. But really, we didn't. Like, I feel like I have way more freedom in Christ now. Like, this is actually freedom in Christ. Just to be.
April Ajoy [00:07:32]:
Just to exist and stop having to, you know, hyper analyze every little thought that I have and be like, is that me? Is that God? Is that a demon? Is that Satan? Is that my flesh? Like that. That was that was not freedom. That was exhausting.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:07:47]:
So you're saying if you have to convince everybody that you have freedom, you may not actually have it?
April Ajoy [00:07:52]:
Yeah, I think, I think so.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:07:55]:
Yeah. That's great. And you do such a good job in your book of sharing, like, your inner monologue of, like, you could tell of, like, your conservative upbringing of, like, how it just, like, chimes in and then you're working through it. And that adds a ton of humor to the book. And you're going to see that in a few of the quotes I'm going to read today. A question that or a quote you have here that I thought was so great. It's going to dive us right into our topic today as we get into some of this, but it piggybacks well on how your own journey has changed a little bit. You kind of pose this question.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:28]:
You say, how did someone like me go from being a dutiful culture warrior to a, quote, little mindless meat puppet flapping her gums, end quote. Because, quote, her demons are shaking her cage now, end quote. And yes, that's a real comment someone made about me. And then you say this. The short answer is easy, Donald Trump. And so if anyone's like, hey, where, where is she at on this? This is going to get real obvious really quick. But I would say this was a major turning point. Obviously, you're sharing for you, for me as well, for many Christians, probably many people listening to this podcast right now.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:09:09]:
So here's my question as we sit here today. What do you think it means for the church now that he's going to be president again? What should we be mentally thinking as we know what this did to us in 2016? What does 2024 and beyond look like?
April Ajoy [00:09:29]:
Well, I think we saw after four years of Trump in 2020, there's also a pandemic, which I think added to this, but we saw a really big kind of deconstruction movement of people that were waking up and were finally saying out loud things that they had been quietly thinking for the last four years because of how much of white evangelical culture just celebrated Donald Trump. And I think we're going to see that again over the next four years. I, I, I think, you know, I'm not a prophet, even though they like to call me a false prophet. And like, I didn't claim to be a true prophet, but, but I false one.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:09]:
At least you're a prophet, I guess, right?
April Ajoy [00:10:11]:
Like, and I'm a woman, so I guess progressive that they could even consider me a prophet, even If a false one. Yeah, yeah. Look at you being woke. But, yeah, I think we're going to see a big, Another big deconstruction push of people that are sitting in pews today in their churches quietly having doubts and questions of being like, why are we all in on Trump? Especially because I think the next four years, a second Trump presidency, is going to be worse. I think there's going to be a lot more dire consequences that are going to affect a lot more people negatively. And so I think, I just, I think we're going to see that movement again, and I think it's going to be really good. I think it's actually the quote unquote revival that everyone's been praying for for all these years is people leaving those talk toxic churches and finding God outside of church walls. So, yeah, anyway, I guess that's my.
April Ajoy [00:11:04]:
That's what I think we can see. And I think it's important, too, that those of us that did all this work already to continue speaking out and to be a place that the people that are exiting can go to so that they can know that they're also not alone and that they are not the first people to have questioned the power structure that is the white evangelical church.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:11:24]:
Yeah, I got a. You reminded me. I got an email this week from a podcast listener who literally was just thanking me for keeping these conversations going to the point you just made, saying it's so encouraging because this continues to be a struggle in their family. And they shared a story with me on a recent holiday, one of their, the dad of the family, I guess the patriarch, came in wearing some Trump clothing. And it became this real issue when they finally said, like, hey, please don't wear that to the family. And then people aren't talking and like, all of this stuff, and it's just like a reminder, like, we all live through that. And, and now I think everyone's kind of going, where, where is this going the next time? And I agree with you, I think it's going to be more extreme. But I also think hearing you say that almost gives me a little bit of encouragement of maybe this will be for a lot more people, a chance for them to say, hey, you know what, it's time for me to explore other things.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:12:20]:
And those of us who are trying to create space for that might be a really cool season of more and more people having this conversation.
April Ajoy [00:12:29]:
Yeah, yeah, totally. And I, and I definitely want to try to be a soft landing for those people, too, and not be like, you idiots, like, what took you so long, but to just be like, hey, it's okay to change your mind. Like, we want people to change their mind. So I'm not. Not that it negates any past harm, but I do kind of feel like one reason I wrote the book and why I make the content that I make is kind of like my outward form of repentance for the. You know, my complicity in that very harmful structure and in Christian nationalism.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:01]:
So, yeah, your content creation is your mea culpa, huh?
April Ajoy [00:13:06]:
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:07]:
I like it. Okay. To that. It was. One of the questions I had is I was reading your book, and you share a lot of things that you previously wrote, songs that you had made, things that. I mean, like. Like, I was kind of amazed at your transparency because, like, if that were me, I. You know, I'd be like, I'm not.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:13:27]:
This one's, gonna, like, never gonna see the light of day again. But you just bring it up like, here's what I wrote. Here's what I believed. And. And I have a lot of those things in my past as well. Sermons I preach that I would never preach again. Things I wrote, blog posts that I'm like, oh, my gosh, what was I thinking? So my question is, as someone who has changed quite a bit, how do you process some of the earlier things you said and wrote that you adamantly disagree with today? Because you seem to have figured this out. Well.
April Ajoy [00:13:56]:
Well, I mean, it's still cringy. Like, I still cringe at a lot of it. And I have. I regret. I have regrets. Like, I wish I would have woken up sooner. I wish I would have questioned things more openly sooner. Like, when I had those little doubts.
April Ajoy [00:14:12]:
I wish I didn't shove them down. But I. Like, I think it goes in stages. Like, initially, I was, like, pissed, and I. And I was really angry with myself, and I thought I was stupid, and I. And I felt like I had internalized a lot of the guilt and the shame of, like, I can't believe I did that and that I wasn't smarter and that I didn't see the red flags, you know, but that was also kind of like my burn it all down, like, angry stage. Like, I. Which I think is like, the first stage of deconstruction.
April Ajoy [00:14:42]:
Like, we're just pissed. Like, it's all terrible. But. But since I. You know, it's been several years, I look back on myself, and I have a lot of empathy and grace for her because she. Like, I was. When I was in that world, I was Just doing what I thought was right in the moment, and I truly believed it. I wasn't a bad actor.
April Ajoy [00:15:03]:
I wasn't trying to pull a fast one over anybody. Like, I genuinely believed everything that I said and that I did, you know, and that doesn't, that's not a cop out. But I can just, like, in a way, I try to remember where I was because it helps me have grace for those who are still in it today. Not that it negates any harm that's being caused. Like, and I want to make that clear. Like, I still need to call out harm and harmful beliefs, but I, I think, remember, like, in some ways, I'm grateful that I was so openly Christian nationalist because it gives me a little bit of street cred when I'm talking to people who are Christian nationalists today. Because I, I can speak their language. I can, I can approach the topic, not, look how bad you are being.
April Ajoy [00:15:57]:
I could say, look how bad I was. Look at the harm that I caused. And I think it's just disarms people a little bit because they don't feel immediately attacked. They're. They're looking at my story, they're looking at me. And hopefully they can just kind of like, I'm putting up a little bit of a mirror is my goal. And that people can change, you know, because people that are Christian nationalists, that are white evangelical in those churches, like, when you grow up in that world, you know, like, we're taught not to listen to any outside person. Like, anyone who doesn't believe what we believe.
April Ajoy [00:16:29]:
We don't listen to atheists, we don't listen to agnostics. We don't listen to Muslims or liberals or, you know, anyone that's not in that world. And so I think because I come from that world, I can speak that language and I can empathize. And I know why they're doing what they're. What they're doing and why they believe what they believe. That. That I can get through a little bit.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:16:53]:
That's a great answer, man.
April Ajoy [00:16:55]:
Oh, thank you.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:16:56]:
It's so good. I'm just like, yeah, I like that. I'll take that. Okay, here's a. Here's a quote that I think could be really helpful for someone listening, going, okay, you're talking about Christian nationalism. Not really sure what that is or how that fits into Christianity at large. You make a distinction that I feel like in all the books I've read on Christian nationalism, this isn't made as much as it should be made. And I appreciated how you said it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:17:18]:
So here's your quote. At times, it may seem like the stories I share relate more closely to conservative evangelical culture in America than just straight Christian nationalism. That's because the two have become so intertwined that it can be really hard to spot the differences. It's one of the more difficult things about stopping Christian nationalism. It hides in plain sight as regular old American Christianity. Here's why I really appreciate that distinction. I think most people hear conservative evangelical culture and they think that's a good thing. Right? Like the, the typical Christian probably hears that phrase and goes, yeah, that's healthy.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:18:01]:
I think more and more people are hearing the phrase Christian nationalism. Hopefully, at least if you're listening to this podcast and you're going, that's a bad thing, like, that's not good. How do you think we can help people better understand how these are connected so that it's not hiding in plain sight like it has been?
April Ajoy [00:18:20]:
Yeah, well, that's, that's the hard part too, because so many people think, like, don't. I think a good chunk of American evangelicals have had their faith co opted by nationalism, but they don't know it. You know, like a good chunk of them believe, as I did, that you have to be, you have to vote Republican if you're a Christian. Like, that's the Christian party, which is nationalism in and of itself. It's, it's, it's conflating a political ideology with your Christian, with your theology. But I think we have to make a distinction between the two because there are differences. Like you can hold to a traditional sexual ethic that you believe comes from the Bible and not be a nationalist. But the, the, where, where the line is, is I will not do that because it goes against my beliefs.
April Ajoy [00:19:13]:
That that's okay, that there's, that's totally fine. Like, and if you're like trying to convince your family of that, like, whatever, but like that, that's, that's just you being true to your own beliefs. Where it goes into a nationalistic territory is when you say, you cannot do that thing because it goes against my beliefs. And when you then try to make that into law because other people do not believe that, that's where, that's when it becomes nationalism. So it's not necessarily that the beliefs are inherently nationalistic. It's when they try to enforce, legislate morality and try to make it everybody's problem. But yeah, it's so, I mean, Christian nationalism goes way back. It's not a new thing.
April Ajoy [00:19:59]:
Trump, it didn't start with Trump. Trump made it a little more obvious because he was clearly Trump. I mean, do I, I don't know if I need to explain, but, you know, like, clearly an immoral, narcissistic, like a very. He. I don't. He's not the Antichrist, but he is a Antichrist character in how he behaves and how he treats people. Like, there's nothing Christ like about that man. And here you had all these Christians making excuse after excuse after excuse and just championing him as some hero of the faith.
April Ajoy [00:20:32]:
And so that just made the nationalism more obvious because you're like, okay, well, clearly this is not. We're not following the teachings of Jesus here. But it goes way back to like, just colonizing America and the doctrine of discovery that the Pope put out where he, you know, where he was saying, basically gave permission to the explorers that if you come across a land and those people are not Christian, that gives you the rights to take their land so you can make them Christian because of eternity and all of that. And then you see that with Manifest Destiny, with the colonies here in America. So it's always been a little bit in, in our nation. The Constitution, though, was very anti Christian nationalism, despite what Christian nationalists may say with the separation of church and state. But, yeah, I, it's hard to convince people because when you're, when you're in that world and you are a Christian, an evangelical, you believe you're a good person. Like, you want to be good, you want to follow the teachings of Jesus, you believe that you're loving all people.
April Ajoy [00:21:32]:
Like, those are, those are good things to love your neighbor and all that stuff. But when you're conditioned week after week after week by your pastor, and then it's reinforced by listening to your Christian talk radio and you watch your Christian television shows, you can literally get Christian news, Christian talk shows, like, and they're all saying, like, you know, we don't, we don't tell you who to vote for. We just tell you to vote for biblical values. But the biblical values that they tell you to vote for are just Republican values. And they completely ignore, you know, welcoming the foreigner that Jesus talked about and taking care of the poor and the widow and the orphan and healing the sick and like, all of these things that are also biblical values, but those are liberal ideals. So those are bad. And so it's. But, but because, but that's when you're taught that what you're voting for is a biblical value, it's really hard to see the nationalism in that because you think you're just being a good Christian, right?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:22:35]:
Well, and I suppose if someone, let's say they're wrestling with this idea and they're like, yeah, but that's not my desire. I don't want to legislate it. I just believe it's what's best. So, like, they may have a belief, you know, let's take a sexual ethic or whatever it is, and they say, well, this is the best way to live. So I want other people to experience that. I think that's where abortion, you know, conversation gets really tricky, is people are saying, no, this is what's best, you know, for other people. So that's where they want to legislate it. How do you help people caution themselves against that need, that desire to say, yeah, but this is such a good idea.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:23:12]:
It's gotta be pushed on other people?
April Ajoy [00:23:16]:
Well, I think you look at history for one. I mean, the majority of the German Evangelical Church completely supported Hitler and his rise to power. And the fact they ousted Bonhoeffer and said that he was going against what God wanted by speaking out, like, for one. And then two, like, you have to, you have to just show, like, I understand you think that is best, but you do not know everything. You do not know everybody's situation. And you have to just let people live and make those decisions for themselves and know that what you think is best doesn't mean that you're right just because you think that way. And I do think too, like, when I especially like the abortion issue. So much of what we are taught in conservative evangelical culture is such a sensationalized view of what abortion actually is like.
April Ajoy [00:24:14]:
So you, you are saying things that you think are best based on a lot of misinformation and disinformation about what abortion is. Like, I was never once taught that a DNC is the exact same procedure, whether it's for an abortion or for a miscarriage. And when you try to ban all abortions, you're putting women who are not even wanting to have an abortion in harm's way because they then doctors are refusing to give them care that they need to live. Like, there's. They're just working from an ignorant standpoint. And so you have to find a way to, to, I don't know, like, it's just, it's just not your business. You know, like, we, we've been taught, like, to be involved in, like, the whole proselytizing thing, like, their blood's going to be on your hands if you don't Say something like, no, like that. That whole mindset is just so harmful in and of itself because not, not only are you trying to tell people what to do, but you yourself cannot have genuine relationships because you always have an ulterior motive.
April Ajoy [00:25:13]:
You're not actually trying to get to know the person, you're trying to save the person, or you're trying to manipulate their behaviors because you don't think what they're doing lines up with your beliefs. And that's, that's just messed up.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:25:26]:
Amen. Good. Okay, so after hearing some of your journey, and this is certainly probably true, if someone reads the book as well, I'm imagining there are people that are going to say like, well, then why are you still a Christian? Like, there's so many things that have been so negative to you, but you're very clear, you're still a Christian. You just moved way beyond a lot of the version of Christianity that you inherited. So how do you answer that? If someone were to say, well, why not just get rid of all of this junk? Why do you still hold to that?
April Ajoy [00:25:59]:
Sure. I mean, fair. And I will say, like, to be honest, like, there's been several days where I'm like, I'm going to leave the Christian label behind because they're, they, they're ruining it. Like, yeah. So there's a couple of reasons. One, I still love Jesus. I've had spiritual experiences that I cannot explain in the language that I had for the divine that I felt is Jesus. I still very much value the teachings of Jesus.
April Ajoy [00:26:25]:
I think the story and the Gospels are powerful. And I think if we all genuinely were following the teachings of Jesus that the world would be a better place. So that's why I am personally still call myself a Christian, because I still hold to following. Like, I still would say I'm a follower of Jesus. And I also think too, still keeping the label Christian gets me in places that I wouldn't be able to go otherwise. In, in like this, this is going to sound a little cringy because it kind of feel, sounds like, like I'm a missionary to Christian nationalists. But I kind of feel that way in a weird way. Like I, like, I feel like if not me, who, you know, like someone's got to try to reach these people because they are causing so much harm.
April Ajoy [00:27:15]:
And I don't think a good majority of people realize how dangerous a Christian nationalist country would be. I mean, there, like, I, I know how serious I was when I was in it and I, and granted, I thought I was doing the right thing. But you have Christian nationalist men today in Twitter, which is, like, the cesspool of the world. And these are pastors with enormous influence who are actively, openly wanting a Christian nation, but not just. Not the Christian nation that Jesus talked about, like the Beatitudes. You know, like, blessed are those who mourn. Blessed are those who are meek and mild. Like, no, they want Jesus roaring like a lion, and they want to literally, like, punish.
April Ajoy [00:28:03]:
Like, capitally punish heretics, which isn't just people who are not Christian. That goes for progressive Christians or any type of Christianity that they believe does not follow their line. They want women to lose the right to vote. They want women to basically stay in the home nonstop. And they think that women gaining any sort of influence on America or in the nation is what has led to, like, the moral decline of America. Like, these men are so patriarchal. Like, would want the Handmaid's Tale to be a reality. Like, that extreme.
April Ajoy [00:28:36]:
And these men are so close to power, some of them. Pete Hegseth is one of those men, and Donald Trump just nominated him to be the Secretary of Defense. Like, it's actually a very scary thing. And I don't think most people who are in this world who even voted for Trump realize that Christian nationalism would not be good for them either, because the people that want to legislate these. These laws. Those laws are going to harm everybody. There's. There's going to be, like, they're not going to pick you.
April Ajoy [00:29:08]:
Especially, like, these women that are out there cheering for Trump. Like, they're. They're voting against their own interests now. Okay, I got a little lost. I forgot what you asked me. I kind of went off on a tangent. I will also say, as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had, like, three sips of this wine, and I'm already feeling it.
April Ajoy [00:29:26]:
So this is fun.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:29:29]:
Yes. I love it. That was a question of why you follow Jesus, so.
April Ajoy [00:29:33]:
Oh, that's what it was.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:29:34]:
That was a great answer. I love it.
April Ajoy [00:29:36]:
Yes. Because. Because I can talk. Because I love Jesus. And also, it really. It also really pisses Christian nationalists off that I say I'm a Christian because they want. They. They will.
April Ajoy [00:29:47]:
I mean, they say I'm not. For the record. Like, they're like, you're not a Christian. You're not true Christian. You've never been a Christian in your entire life. But it really makes them mad. And honestly, this. I have.
April Ajoy [00:29:56]:
I have a little bit of a stubborn streak, and it pisses me off the way they have run the name of Jesus through the mud. So I'm like, no, you cannot tell me that I'm not a Christian when I'm actually following the teachings of Jesus and you're trying to kick the foreigners out, like, and separate families and throw them in cages and literally voted for, like, a quadruple time adulterer who slept with a porn star and paid it off and said he's never asked God for forgiveness. And you say he's a hero of the faith. Miss me with the fact that I'm the one that's not a Christian. Wow, I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:30:31]:
That's going to be a clip on social media right there.
April Ajoy [00:30:33]:
Perfect.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:30:35]:
That was fantastic. We should just wrap it up. Closing prayer. That was. That was great.
April Ajoy [00:30:39]:
Bow your heads. Close your eyes.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:30:41]:
Okay. I'm loving this. All right, so now, as if that couldn't be talked, I want to read what I think is my favorite quote from the book.
April Ajoy [00:30:49]:
Oh, yeah, I'm curious. I want to know what it is.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:30:52]:
Probably not what you're expecting. Okay, this was one for a number of phrases in this paragraph. I'm going to read the whole paragraph. I literally laughed out loud, like, I'm in my backyard chuckling to myself. And I'm thinking, this is a hysterical observation. But also, there's so much meaning to it. So here we go. Dear listeners, my favorite quote of her book.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:31:14]:
You write this. One of my favorite fights in the early church, which you. You got me already at that sentence of, like, your favorite fight. I just thought was such a funny way to word that. So I'm already like, I like the way you're phrasing this. One of my favorite fights in the early church occurred in Acts 15, when Christian men argued about their penises. They debated whether or not salvation depended on a man's crotch turtle shedding its shell. I mean, naturally, the men thought it all came down to their penises, right? Christ may have busted open the gates of heaven or not, depending on who you asked, but men were still men.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:31:53]:
I always wonder what the women were doing while the men theologically discussed their privates. Like, do we not exist? Maybe the men wanted women quiet because vaginas would just confuse their theology.
April Ajoy [00:32:08]:
I'm really glad that you appreciated that because I. When I wrote that, I was like, this is so funny. I hope someone else thinks it's funny.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:32:15]:
I think I had to, like, put it down for a second and just go like, that's an incredible. That's an incredible paragraph. When Christian Men argued about their penises, which you're not wrong. I mean, like, we don't say it like that, but look what they did. What a hilarious way to summarize Acts 15. I mean, and if you're offended, dear listener, it's. She's summarizing Acts 15 in a very practical way. So here's my question.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:32:45]:
How do we untangle men from some of the crazy theology today? Because the majority of it comes from men. The crazy stuff. How do we do this especially. And this is. This is where we need women to help us if many men still see women with skepticism. Right. So, like, many women can't get onto a pulpit on a weekend stage at a church. Right.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:11]:
Which is why, you know, podcasting and new forms of content are huge, because they're allowing women's voices to get into places where historically have been, you know, kept out by the gatekeepers. How do we. I mean, you're pointing out some of the absurdity of how guys get wrapped up in weird theology. What do you see from a woman's point of view? How do we move forward in a better way?
April Ajoy [00:33:36]:
Well, that's a great question, because you also. In order to see change, you have to rely on men to listen, which is a. A task in and of itself.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:47]:
Yeah.
April Ajoy [00:33:48]:
So, I mean, I would say that's one. That's why it's so important to have men who don't subscribe to a more patriarchal, misogynistic view of scripture to speak out, you know, because there are literally men. Like, I mean, to this day, I get. I probably get this comment at least once a week where they like to quote the Timothy. Is it second Timothy or first Timothy, where it's like, women must be silent. One of the Timothys, my wine is kicked in. So I don't remember which one, but it doesn't matter. But I get quoted that at me all the time.
April Ajoy [00:34:18]:
I know Paul well. Yeah, well, it's like Paul said, you need to be quiet. I'm like, no, he didn't. He was writing a letter to a very specific church, and I was not in that letter whatsoever. But, yeah, like, we need. So they won't listen to me, and I. And I acknowledge that. And I will say there are a certain group of men who I think are Christians because of the power their version of Christianity gives them.
April Ajoy [00:34:45]:
You know, they get to be kings of their own household. Like, literally, they. That's how they view themselves. And which. Which also, as a sidebar, I. I really do think one reason why it's so easy for so many white evangelicals to support Donald Trump, despite his, his authoritarian kind of kink he's got going with. I mean, he said he'd be a dictator for a day like that, for whatever reason. That doesn't bother them at all.
April Ajoy [00:35:14]:
And I really think it's because we've been trained as a culture, especially in, like, megachurch environment, that the pastor can do no wrong, that you don't touch God's anointed, that whatever the pastor says or does is almost like hearing from the voice of God. And if someone tries to say that he's being, you know, like someone accuses him or something, they're like, no, that he's being attacked. He's being persecuted because of who he is. And like, so it's an easy step to go from that when that's what you're trained to do. Same thing in the home. Like, the wife always has to listen to what the husband says. She doesn't question her husband, she obeys her husband. It's easy to go from that mindset to saying, oh, Donald Trump can do no wrong.
April Ajoy [00:35:52]:
He's just being persecuted by the left because he's actually God's chosen. Like, he didn't actually do any of that stuff. This is persecution. And like, literally, you have people who will not believe anything that they read in the news despite any sort of fact or statistic, but they will believe Donald Trump of all people. Because we've been conditioned, we've also been conditioned to believe that the majority of the world is out to get us and that Satan has his claws in every single facet of society that's not Christian. And so you automatically have this distrust of any expert, regardless of their credentials, because they could be led astray by Satan. But really, we can believe our Podunk pastor over here because he's, he said he's of God, like, right, so, so you can easily. Anyway.
April Ajoy [00:36:43]:
But how do we reach men? I actually remembered the question this time. You know, I, I, I think, I don't, I think some of them are too far gone, if I'm being honest. But what we need are men to be humble and to realize that just because they were born with a penis, that doesn't mean that they can just do whatever they want and that they're somehow better than women. But, you know, that's, how do you get them to, to admit that?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:37:09]:
Yeah, well, I think we have to talk about it. And I think you're, yeah, you're raising a, an uncomfortable observation for many people. But it's one that I think there's a lot of merit to. Of a lot of these church systems have unintended consequences that then lead over to these other realities, right? Where when you go to a church with a model of the pastor is above reproach and above anything that is unhealthy. And if you cannot sit in a weekend and say, hey, that's bizarre, you know, what was just said, or, hey, some of the things that are. That he's doing are bizarre. Like, if you don't live in that culture, that's going to lead to some really negative things and an environment that's ripe for abuse. And we're seeing it play out, you know, all over the place.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:37:59]:
So I appreciate that. Okay, a couple more quotes I wanna ask you about. You have this one sentence that was so profound and so succinct, but I loved it. You tell the story. Then you said this. It takes a large amount of cognitive dissonance to continually be treated so well by people who are supposed to be evil. And this comes off of a story where you wanted to hate someone and you were trying your best to be against them, but you just couldn't because they actually weren't the evil person they were made out to be. I think this is so good.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:38:35]:
And it's also why we need to get more Christians in contact with people who they have been told are their enemies, whether that be people in the LGBTQ community, Muslims. I mean, it could be anyone, right? That. That is kind of portrayed as, these are the enemy. Do you have any ideas how do we do that? Better get Christians around people who they have been kind of stereotypically told, these are your enemy.
April Ajoy [00:39:04]:
That's a good question, because, like, almost you have to be intentional if you're in that world to meet new people, because you have the ability to not ever step out of your comfort zone. Because, like, Christian nationalism has been very intentional about being able to provide everything anyone could need inside that circle so that they don't meet anybody from the outside. Because meeting other people of different beliefs and seeing that they're not demons or possessed or evil, that. That does so much damage to. To a very fundamentalist ideology, you know, because. Because it provides nuance. If you. If you suddenly realize that, you know, that your Hindu neighbor is not worshiping demons in their home and that they're actually very kind and that they love their families and they have a beautiful culture, then.
April Ajoy [00:40:04]:
Then suddenly you've brought nuance to the conversation. And nuance is a dogma killer and so Christian nationalism only can only exist if their followers who support that system and support that ideology hold on to their dogma. Because nuance would kill Christian nationalism. It's a very black and white ideology, you know. So the hard part is that, you know, a Christian nationalism too. Like Christian media, the influence that they have. Like, there's literally like Christian news shows like CBN, the 700 Club, there's Christian movies, there's Christian entire Christian TV channels. There's, you know, obviously Christian politicians.
April Ajoy [00:40:44]:
There's. There is a Christian version for everything that you can find in the world, even science. You've got the Ark encounter and the creation museum that Ken Ham put on, which is like insane. How factually wrong that is. This is a sidebar. We actually went to the ark over the summer because a podcast invited us to go to get our like live reaction. And it was, it was a little bit triggering. It was a lot of it triggering actually, because like they literally have like health.
April Ajoy [00:41:10]:
They have hell threats like throughout it. And there's like kids in there. There was like this. Anyway, but, but the one thing that just blew my mind out of all of the just factual. They had a timeline of the, like the, the whole world, like of the human existence. And it started with creation.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:41:30]:
Six years ago.
April Ajoy [00:41:31]:
Yes, 6,000 years. So creation was like year zero, right? And then it brought us to like the year 2000, whatever it was modern time. And then right about here, they have Noah's Ark, the big, the great flood, right, where everyone except eight people died in the world. And they had that on a giant plaque too. They're like, everyone except eight people died. And there was literally like a mom with her kids. She told her four year old, like kid, everyone except eight people died.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:42:01]:
Wow.
April Ajoy [00:42:01]:
I'm like, this is traumatizing. Anyway, so they had that, the creation of the world, Noah's Ark. And then after Noah's Ark was the ice age.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:42:12]:
Oh, that's confusing.
April Ajoy [00:42:14]:
So literally, like as the Bible's being written at some point in the Hebrew Old Testament, maybe like King David, there was just like woolly mammoths walking around because the ice age was happening. Anyway, that was, that just blew my mind. Just factually wrong. But yeah, so like the, that whole world to their point is like they, they create a world and the war that they have in education to, you know, they talk about public schools as like being war zones. Not because of school shootings, because Christians are persecuted. You know, it's. So they're literally trained to just to not listen to any outside information. And To.
April Ajoy [00:42:52]:
To be in a bubble because Satan's out to get you. Satan's around any corner they wanted. They want you to doubt your faith. So it's built into the belief system, so it can be very hard to penetrate. But that can only happen for so long. You know, at some point, someone's going to meet somebody that. That goes against their beliefs. And usually you have two choices when that happens.
April Ajoy [00:43:15]:
You either embrace the doubt and explore that and see, like, something feels off here. Do I. I need to figure out why? Or you shove it down. And I would say a good chunk of people because. Because the. The belief system is so tightly knit that if you pull on one little doubt, it's very easy for everything to unravel. So I do think most people just shove everything down because they don't want to have an existential crisis, because that is exactly what would happen. And that's not fun.
April Ajoy [00:43:45]:
So there, you know, especially. Especially if you're, like, a pastor or, you know, you're in ministry and your livelihood is dependent on you keeping the beliefs that you have for your entire life. If you want that paycheck, then you have extra reason to shove down any doubts and to not meet other people that might bring up questions. So, yeah, I mean, and I don't want to put the. The burden of, you know, the. The emotional labor on people who are not Christian. But, you know, part of that is, like, if you meet a Christian, just be kind. You know, show them that you're not evil.
April Ajoy [00:44:24]:
And then. Because, like, they. If you give them an inch. Like, I remember, like, when I would make posts or whatever, if someone, like an atheist came in and was like, oh, you believe in Sky Daddy? Literally, I would, like. It'd be part of my testimony in small group the next week being, like, I was persecuted for my faith, you know, like, it just, like, reinforces the narrative that they have, you know, so. Not that they deserve it, because they could be, you know, we could be pretty cruel in that world, even though we think we're being loving. But. Yeah, sorry, I don't know if that answered your question.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:44:53]:
Great. I love it.
April Ajoy [00:44:55]:
I keep going on these tangents because of this peach wine.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:45:00]:
That's why we do this podcast.
April Ajoy [00:45:02]:
This is.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:45:02]:
We get. We get the real theology here.
April Ajoy [00:45:05]:
It's good.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:45:07]:
Okay, another great insight you share. And this got me thinking about an ongoing conversation I have with friends of mine. So I want you to weigh in on this. The quote that triggered the thought was, you say, even now, if it gets too quiet in my house, My first thought is that I've been left behind.
April Ajoy [00:45:27]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:45:28]:
Just talking about, like, literally theological PTSD of how you were raised and all this. So I have an ongoing conversation with some friends of mine who have also come out of conservative evangelicalism, and it involves raising our kids. And the question is, is it better to give our kids a traditional conservative foundation like we had and then kind of bring them to where we are so they have seen all of it and they've been exposed to it, or is it better to skip all of that? Fast forward to the end. But the, the. The kind of. The lingering doubt on that theory is, do they then later in life, someone exposed to them some, like, conservative theology they've never heard before, and they're like, oh, my gosh, this is the most brilliant hot take. And you're like, no, it's not. It's not really, you know, so it's like, we all came from this background into this trajectory.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:46:23]:
That's how we got there. Should we try to help our kids do the same thing? Or do we have to, like, acknowledge that was just our journey? They're going to have a different one. What's your take on that?
April Ajoy [00:46:34]:
Okay, this is a great question, because this is something my spouse and I have talked about so much because we have two daughters, 8 and 5, and we've literally been like, like, how do we raise them in a way with a faith that they don't have to heal from later? Like, we literally just started going to another church, and the pastor said that, like, the first Sunday we visited, and we're like, okay, this is where we want to be. So here's my opinion. And obviously, I don't know, like, Beecher and I were like, we know what a conservative upbringing produces. Both of us have anxiety and, you know, some religious trauma. And, like, we know what that produces. We know, like, we know that it's harmful because we came out of that world, but we at least know, like, we know what that produces. We have no idea what we're doing is going to produce. You know, like, we're just trying our best, which I think is what Eddie Parent is doing.
April Ajoy [00:47:26]:
But I will say, and I wish I had the study to back this up, but I don't remember what it was because Beecher had found a. There is this article that had a study that was just saying, basically, if you raise your children in any sort of fundamentalism, like, if you raise them in, like, we're very conservative Christian, this is what we believe that your kids are going to be More likely to swing the complete other direction, like, become atheists as a way of rebelling or just like, because they weren't taught the other side at all. So it's going to sound nice. Same thing with, with the reverse. Like, if you raise someone really fundamentalist atheist that's like anti religion and all this stuff, they're more likely to get sucked into, like a fundamentalist Christianity or a cult or, you know, some sort of religion later on in life. But what they were saying is that if you give your kids a little bit of religion, it's kind of like a vaccine in a way. Like, it like, protects them from, like, they know enough about it to not be shocked when someone tells them these things. But.
April Ajoy [00:48:26]:
But they know. But they. But not enough to, like, like, the beliefs are not impacting them in a harmful way because that's not like, we're not living by them. And so, like, I mean, I'll just say what we do, which I have no idea if what we're doing is right or what. But I have a plan to, like, tell them. Here's what I believed growing up. This is what I was taught. This is what some people believe.
April Ajoy [00:48:50]:
And presented that way, I was like, this is what other people believe. Like, this is what I believe. But ultimately you've got to make that decision for yourself. And I don't want to force anything on them. But I also. Our main goal is to have just an open dialogue with our kids always where they can come to us with anything and we're not going to react in a judgmental or, you know, a freaking out kind of way and just like, be a safe place for them to ask questions. I will say, like, my biggest fear is. Well, I have two main fears.
April Ajoy [00:49:27]:
Like, I never did drugs or alcohol or slept around because I was terrified of going to hell and I didn't want to soul tie, you know, like, with whoever I had sex with. So, like, that was why I didn't do that. So I'm like, I really. I still don't want my. Yeah, I still don't want my kids to do that because there's, like, there are practical reasons of why that could be harmful that have nothing to do with religious shame, like, when they're like, underage and in high school and stuff. So I, like, I have a fear of that just because I know what kept me from doing that. And they're not going to have that, you know, boundary. So.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:49:58]:
Right.
April Ajoy [00:49:58]:
But my other big fear is that they get sucked into a cult and that, like, some Youth group kid. Basically if like a high school version of me when I was in high school comes through and like tries to save their soul and bring them to youth group and, and they're like, you know, your parents are going to hell. And they come back, they're like, mom so and so said you're going to hell and you need to come to church. Like, that's my biggest fear. But honestly, if that were to happen, I'd be like, child, sit down. We have. I've got a story for you. You know, and be like, I've been there.
April Ajoy [00:50:24]:
I believed that. I don't think that's helpful or healthy. And then, you know, like, I can, I can show her biblically and theologically, you know, like why I don't believe that anymore. And so hopefully that, that is enough of a, of a barrier. But anyway, that's, that's our goal. We found. We actually recently just started going to a new church. It's a Methodist church, but they're affirming.
April Ajoy [00:50:45]:
And our. One of our, our oldest daughter's Sunday school teacher is a trans woman. And, and she. That was like, I think that's the first trans woman she's met like in person. My, my spouse is non binary but that like this is the first like trans woman she's met. And we were just talking about how cool it is that the first time she encountered a trans person was in a church setting. And in a way that was like these things can coexist and not in a demonizing way like that our kids can grow up around queer people. And like I never knew, I didn't know a single queer person until like I was in college.
April Ajoy [00:51:21]:
And the person that I thought was queer and was, was in the closet at the time because we were at a Christian school, you know, like, I think, I don't know. I'm hopeful that them seeing healthy versions of faith will protect them from the unhealthy versions of faith as opposed to just throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:42]:
Okay, that vaccine analogy is killer.
April Ajoy [00:51:46]:
I'm with that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:47]:
That is, that is so good. And if it makes you feel better, I realized that we have become the family that my kids. Christian friends are trying to convert now.
April Ajoy [00:52:00]:
Same.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:52:01]:
Yeah, I was on a, like a school like little one of their little walks where they raising money or something. And I'm with my daughter and we're walking around and she's got one of her friends and then her friend's mom. And on this walk, you know, her, her friend's mom Starts telling me, like, oh, you know, I'm glad our daughters are friends and all this. And then she says, hey, I just wanted to say it. I hope it's not too forward, but I don't know if you'd ever be willing to check it out, but, like, here's this church we go to. We would love to have your family come with us. And I, like, had this moment where I was like, oh, my gosh, they lit. Like, we're.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:52:34]:
We're. The people.
April Ajoy [00:52:35]:
They're.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:52:36]:
They're trying to convert now. And the funny part about that was I happened to be really good friends with the pastor of her church, and so I said, oh, you know, so. And so is a great friend of mine. I love that guy. And she had no box to put that in because it was like, you're not saved. You know, you don't go to church every week. I know your daughter doesn't do this. How could you know a pastor? You know, like, it was just funny.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:52:58]:
But it is funny. Like. But, yeah, like, we're raising our kids very differently. I was. I grew up in the pews. You know, I was there sometimes a week, and my kids are not. And so it is. It is interesting, and I think that's a super helpful analogy.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:11]:
Okay, we're going to pivot. We're going to ask you a wine question, and then we're going to go to our speed round of questions. I like to end with each guest. Okay, so here's the pivot, and I'm excited for this answer based on how much of your peach wine you've had so far. If I were to ask you, as admittedly not super wine person, but you obviously have wine that you drink and you enjoy. If I were to say, April, what's, like, the best memory you have? The greatest glass of wine you've ever had or the best bottle you've ever had in your life. Is there a moment that comes to mind? Was it with certain people? Was it a certain glass? A certain bottle? What's, like, the best wine moment you've ever had? Can you. Can you think of something?
April Ajoy [00:53:56]:
Yes. I guess it's more of a funny story, I guess when my spouse and I, we had. We were just married, so, like, we were newlyweds, and we lived in Virginia at the time. And so we, like, drove to get away for a few days in Charlottesville, Virginia. And that's like wine country. There's. There's so many vineyards out there. And so we decided to just vineyard hop and do a Bunch of different wine tastings.
April Ajoy [00:54:21]:
And so we went to three different ones. And one day. Yeah, in one day.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:54:27]:
That's a lot.
April Ajoy [00:54:28]:
We didn't know. Okay. We didn't know. We heard about this. People were like, oh, yeah, you can just go to a bunch of different wines and try different wines. I will say this was our first time to ever do wine tastings, so.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:54:38]:
Because we both know where this story is going.
April Ajoy [00:54:40]:
So we both grew up, like, not drinking. Like, alcohol was never in our homes. Like, we were kind of new drinkers, I guess, because we were.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:54:49]:
We decided just to go for it. Yeah.
April Ajoy [00:54:51]:
We're like, we. You know, we're newly married. We. We're. We can do this now. And so. But I will say we didn't know until the third vineyard that we went to that most people, when they sip the wine, that they just sip it and then dump the rest. Like, in that container thing.
April Ajoy [00:55:09]:
We were downing our whole, like, glasses, you know, like, they gave us the glass. Like, we. Because the first two we went to, we were the only ones there. So the box. We saw the little box thing there, but we didn't know what that was. So we drank the whole thing. We drove to the next one, drank the whole thing, drove to the next one. By the third one, we had probably had, I don't know, four or five glasses of wine at this point.
April Ajoy [00:55:31]:
And ironically, this was Trump's vineyard. I think it was owned by his son. And this was, like, in 20, 2014. So this was, like, before Trump was who. Like, he. He was just the guy from the Apprentice at this point. So we're like, oh, Trump's mob vineyard, you know, And. And so we're at the third one, and we.
April Ajoy [00:55:50]:
We take a sip, and I see the people. There are other people at this one. Dump the rest of theirs in whatever that thing is called. And then suddenly I realized, like, I'm drunk. And I looked at Beecher and Beecher's, like, I'm drunk, too. And I'm like, I think we were supposed to be dumping our wine into the thing. And so we literally just had to. We were like, can we have some water? So we had to go sit.
April Ajoy [00:56:13]:
We literally had to go sit down for like, an hour and a half and just drink tons of water to sober up so that we could drive back to our little bed and breakfast that we were staying at.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:56:22]:
Nice.
April Ajoy [00:56:22]:
So that's my. It was fun, though. It was a fun experience because, I don't know, we probably looked stupid. Like, we need to sober up because we, we were unprepared for how much wine we were going to be drinking.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:56:36]:
Yeah. When. So we do, we do wine tours in Oregon. We've led groups through that. And I used to do three different stops. And then I realized people are hammered after three stops. Like, the typical person cannot, even if they're dumping, cannot handle that much wine. And so now we try to keep it to like two in a day because that way you can remember it all, you can enjoy it all.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:01]:
And again, you know, if you're having nice high end wine, I always like, it hurts me for people to dump it when it's like, that's a 150 bottle of wine that you're like, you know, just dump it. I had a sip, you know, so, yeah, that's. That's funny. But three in a day. I did, I did four in a day once. Like one time we did it and I barely remember the fourth. And that's where we all. We were like, yeah, that was.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:24]:
Four is too many. Four is. Wow, that's too many.
April Ajoy [00:57:27]:
So that makes me feel better though, because we just thought we're like, oh, we're such lightweight. It's like that. We are just.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:31]:
So maybe three is a lot.
April Ajoy [00:57:33]:
Okay, well, that, that makes me feel a little bit better.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:35]:
You're on trash three. Three is a lot. All right, here, let's get to our lightning round here. All right. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were.
April Ajoy [00:57:45]:
Wrong about the Rapture.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:49]:
You want to learn?
April Ajoy [00:57:49]:
Am I supposed to expound?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:57:51]:
Oh, well, it's up to you. This is your answer?
April Ajoy [00:57:53]:
Yeah, I believed that the Rapture was like essential Christianity. And then when I learned that it wasn't a belief in Christianity until the 1830s, I was pretty pissed because that caused me some trauma.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:58:07]:
Yeah, you talking about? I think I'm trying to remember who you had the conversation with in the book, but you're like, where are the verses for this? And they're like, well, it's not exactly.
April Ajoy [00:58:15]:
Yeah, we pull it from this word because in Latin it means this. And I'm like, that is. How did we get all of Left behind books? Like, from that? Like, I felt very. I felt misled and lied to.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:58:29]:
That's. That's legitimate.
April Ajoy [00:58:30]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:58:31]:
What do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
April Ajoy [00:58:35]:
Christian nationalism, for sure. And combating that and trying to get people to follow the way of Jesus instead of the way of political power and influence that the church has become associated with.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:58:52]:
What is something that's blowing Your mind right now.
April Ajoy [00:58:56]:
The aliens in the ocean.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:58:59]:
Okay, I'm. I'm going to need you to elaborate on this because I don't know what you're talking about.
April Ajoy [00:59:02]:
Okay, well, there's not actually aliens, but there's. They. There was literally another congressional hearing in the last couple weeks that said they sound found more. They don't call them UFOs anymore, but basically it's like an unidentified object that they. They don't know what it is, but they found a bunch of these little, like, glowy orb things in the middle of the ocean. And so a lot of people are saying that they're aliens, but because of the news and cycle and how chaotic the world is, it's kind of flying under the radar.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:59:32]:
The UFOs are flying under the radar, if you will. What is a problem that you are trying to solve?
April Ajoy [00:59:42]:
How to survive the next four years.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:59:44]:
Oof. How. How's it going solving it?
April Ajoy [00:59:49]:
You feel like I haven't solved it yet. I'm. I'm more in the disassociate phase, but yeah, I, I, Yeah, I don't know. I don't know the answer. I'm hoping democracy survives.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:00:02]:
Can we check back in with you to see if you've solved that?
April Ajoy [01:00:05]:
Yes, please. Please do. And also if you've solved it, whoever. If someone else has solved that conundrum.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:00:11]:
That's a good one. What's something you're excited about right now?
April Ajoy [01:00:19]:
What am I excited about? I guess Christmas. I love Christmas. It's coming up. I don't know. This. Is this airing before Christmas?
Jeremy Jernigan [01:00:29]:
It will, yes.
April Ajoy [01:00:30]:
Okay, good. Then Christmas. That's relevant. And I have family coming in from Texas.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:00:33]:
I will edit this whole section out.
April Ajoy [01:00:37]:
Yeah, no, I love, I love Christmas. I used to be a little bit of a scrooge because I felt like always had this anticipation that there'd be Christmas magic, and of course, there never was, even though I knew, like, it doesn't actually exist and it's all manufactured by the parents and like, you know, corporate greed. But wow. No, but I love that my kids like seeing my kids experience Christmas magic. I've found myself being a big Christmas person again.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:01:04]:
What's your favorite Christmas movie?
April Ajoy [01:01:08]:
Christmas Vacation.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:01:10]:
Really? Wow. Okay. Okay. Is there anything else you want to add that I have not asked you about? That we cannot conclude this conversation without addressing.
April Ajoy [01:01:26]:
Oh, can I amend my last answer?
Jeremy Jernigan [01:01:29]:
Yes, you can.
April Ajoy [01:01:29]:
My favorite Christmas movies are actually the Lord of the Rings trilogy, because I believe they count as Christmas movies. Wow.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:01:39]:
First Die Hard, now this. You're gonna put that into the.
April Ajoy [01:01:43]:
Yes. Because listen, every single movie was released in December, so you already, like, have associated with the holidays and the Lord of the Rings. It features snow, it has elves, it has singing, it has. It has old men with long white beards. It has evergreen trees. It's got every. It's got true love and friendship. Has everything that a good Christmas movie like is.
April Ajoy [01:02:12]:
Is made out of.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:15]:
Is this the wine talking? Be honest, April.
April Ajoy [01:02:18]:
No, I've made this. I've made this argument before.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:21]:
So you're not coming up with this on the spot?
April Ajoy [01:02:23]:
No, no, I've. I've thought this through.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:26]:
This makes me feel a little better. But. But, man, what a hot take today.
April Ajoy [01:02:30]:
That's my take. Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:33]:
I've never heard that. That is. I'm about to process that.
April Ajoy [01:02:37]:
Yeah. I mean, every holiday season, I get in the mood to watch Lord of the Rings just as much as any other Christmas movie. I'm also a really big Lord of the Rings fan, though. I saw the first movie seven times in the movie theaters. That's like. What is that?
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:51]:
Theaters?
April Ajoy [01:02:52]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:53]:
That's a lot of your life right there.
April Ajoy [01:02:55]:
It is. I mean, I was 12. I didn't have much going on at the time. Didn't have kids to take care of, and I think my parents liked that it was three hours. They could just drop us off, you know, free babysitting.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:03:06]:
Now you have, like, the extended versions that are, what, four hours each?
April Ajoy [01:03:09]:
Yeah, it's a bit much. I don't recommend, if it's your first time watching, to watch the extended versions. I'm not like, I'm. I'm. I'm a die hard and I appreciate the extended versions and I would watch them, but I'm also realistic, and I know that not everyone's going to care about. And honestly, some. Some of the scenes in the extended. It's like, yeah, I get why this was cut as it should have been.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:03:30]:
Yeah, this is not as good as the rest. Yeah, yeah, that's valid. I like it. Okay, so if someone is watching and listening to this and they're like, I like her. She's great. I want to see more of what she's producing. What's the easiest way for them to connect with you online?
April Ajoy [01:03:46]:
Yeah, you can follow me on Instagram and TikTok. I don't know if TikTok's going away, but that's where this whole thing started was on TikTok. So I have my biggest following there. But I'm at April ajoy, A J O Y and TikTok Instagram. I'm still on Twitter, but I'm not posting as much because this is cesspool. I'm on Blue sky and threads on Facebook and YouTube and I'm pretty much everywhere. And also, if you want to hear me more on a more long form format, I co host the Friday episodes of the New Evangelicals with Tim Whitaker. We do a, like a weekly recap of the news, but from a progressive Christian perspective.
April Ajoy [01:04:26]:
And then, yeah, just, and then just get my book, Star Spangled Jesus, wherever books are sold. I also did the audio book, so if you want to hear me narrate it to you, that's also an option.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:04:38]:
Well, hey, this has been an absolute joy to talk with you. I love what you're doing. I love the journey you've been on. It's an encouragement for so many of us and I'm super grateful for the work that you're doing and you're offering a lot of really good help for a lot of people, myself included. So thank you for taking the time today to be on the podcast. Thanks for bringing your peach wine and being a good sport about it. We have thoroughly enjoyed having you.
April Ajoy [01:05:04]:
Now, thank you so much for having me. And I really. You had really good questions. You are a great interviewer. Interview fee. Interviewer.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:05:14]:
You're the interviewee.
April Ajoy [01:05:16]:
I'm the. Yeah, I'm the e. You're the er.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:05:17]:
I'm the.
April Ajoy [01:05:18]:
You're a good er.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:05:21]:
Well, thank you very much. Well, hi everybody. Thanks for, for being a part of this episode of Cabernet and Pray. We will see you on the next one.
