Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:00]:
In today's episode, we are going to dive into a practical expression of what church can be. A lot of times I get in conversations with people and they're like, yeah, we're critiquing things the right way. We're pointing out things that have issues, but then what? What are we left with? And a lot of times that can be really hard. When you're emerging out of something into something new, how do you know what the something new is going to look like? And today, I think, is a great example of someone who's doing a really good job stumbling their way into something new, as he describes it. Today we're going to Talk with Mark McKinney. Mark has been married 25 years to his wife, Michelle. They have four kids, all internationally adopted, from Taiwan, Vietnam, Dominican Republic, two of them with special medical needs. Mark says he probably has a problem for some reason.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:00:54]:
He has four different kinds of grills and smokers from Weber, but he loves cooking for his friends and his family. He has Midwest roots with a West coast heart, which I think is great. He grew up in in Indiana, moved to California 20 years ago, and has been on the west coast ever since. He planted a trauma informed church called Reunion that is located in a brewery. And that is what we're going to talk a lot about in this episode. He believes in the church, but also believes it needs to look different in the 21st century. And they are doing it. They are out there trying something new.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:01:35]:
And if you resonate with this podcast, you are probably going to love hearing Mark's story. This is episode 37, Church in the Brewery.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:50]:
Welcome to the podcast, Mark.
Mark McKinney [00:03:53]:
Hey, how's it going? Jeremy, good to see you.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:03:56]:
It is great to be with you again. This is our second take on this episode. I botched the first one with some technical issues, and Mark is gracious enough to give me round two. And I was just telling him before we recorded that this was such a meaningful conversation the first time we did it that I just didn't want to skip over it. So I'm incredibly grateful he's doing this again. He's doing me a solid today. And you, dear listener or watcher, are going to be the beneficiary of that because this was a great conversation. So I'm excited to get into it again today in Mark's honor.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:04:33]:
He lives in California, so I went. I went a California bottle. This is actually one of my, like, favorite go to easy to find bottles. It's 2022 Cloud Break, Black Cloud. So you can find this, I think, in a lot of, like, grocery stores actually sell this bottle. I don't think it's super expensive either. This is a red blend that is just really easy to drink but doesn't feel overly processed. It's got a smooth mouth feel to it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:04]:
It is dark. I mean, you see this in the glass and you think, oh, this is going to be. This thing's going to knock me down. And it doesn't just has that. That vibe to it. I'm getting cranberry, black cherry, mushroom. Super easy drinking. Very well balanced.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:05:19]:
I'm really enjoying this one. Mark, tell us about what you're drinking today.
Mark McKinney [00:05:24]:
Yeah, I got this to Juggernaut. I feel like they're trying to overcompensate for something because of the picture on the front of it, but that is an aggressive wine. But I like it. It's. It's a cabernet and it's got a dryness to it that normally I don't like, but I, I, for whatever reason, like, it's got like this black cherry stuff going on in the background as well. And I kind of like that darker boulder type fruit, I guess, fruit forward. My wife is really the one that has a better palate than I do. But, But I'm drinking this in honor of my buddy Vince, who is a wine connoisseur, and he turned me onto this.
Mark McKinney [00:06:03]:
So.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:04]:
Nice.
Mark McKinney [00:06:04]:
Here's the vents.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:06]:
So this is a. This is a regular go to for you then? This is not your first time trying it?
Mark McKinney [00:06:10]:
No, no, this is not my first time. Yeah, it's. It's in the rotation. I wouldn't say on. On the regular, I'm more of a Paso region guy, but on the first podcast go around, I had my favorite from Austin, Hope. But. But we digress. I'm not going to go there.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:29]:
That's fair. You know what? I deserve that, Mark. I deserve that.
Mark McKinney [00:06:34]:
And I don't quite have the awesome background that I did previously with all the wine barrels at the winery where our church meets, but here we are.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:41]:
So you are in front of wine barrels last time, but we'll take the Southern California vibes you're bringing today.
Mark McKinney [00:06:47]:
Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:06:49]:
All right, Mark, as we get into a little bit of your story, I. I find it so intriguing. And since you and I have. Have been talking more, I find myself thinking about what you're doing more and more and even envisioning how much of other people can do this. And this is why I'm excited to get into some of these details with you. But for. For people trying to get a little bit of a feel of your story, your journey, how would you say that your faith has changed in the last 10 years?
Mark McKinney [00:07:17]:
You know, I think this is part of my story that God did and is doing inside of me where I always kind of had. I'm the youngest of my family, I'm the baby. And I kind of always grew up with that feeling of like my. My brother and sister saying, oh, well, of course Mark got that, you know, you know, he's the baby, you know, stuff. And that kind of followed me into ministry. And probably like the first 20 years of my ministry, literally I just kind of had and friends and I would never say this out loud, and I'm only saying it out loud now because I had to go through the trenches to get. But, you know, some of my friends would call me the golden boy. And like, really, a lot of the things in ministry that I did just seemed to like, go the right way.
Mark McKinney [00:08:06]:
And so, long story short, I had this cool, awesome idea that I felt like God was telling me to plant a church, which not really sure that was from the Lord anymore, but.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:08:18]:
Could have been the wine, huh?
Mark McKinney [00:08:19]:
It could have been the wine for sure. But I planted a church. And really, I mean, we. We went through initial really, really hard season, then Covid and just all kinds of crazy stuff happened to where my plan was certainly, like within the first six months the wheels had fallen off and I was basically in my basement crying, saying, God, I. What do you want me to do? Like, my plans had been like nuked beyond belief. I quit my job, no source of income, moved and bought a house, moved my family over from Vegas to here, and literally I was like, had nothing to like go for. My partnership that I had moved here to start a church with had gone up in smoke and I mean, imagine bad things happening in the church, but literally it was like all I had to hold on to was God. All I had was like, literally I had to hang on to him.
Mark McKinney [00:09:17]:
And before that, my faith. Here's how it has changed, is I think I would have secretly said, yeah, this is kind of my thing and God's along for the ride. Of course it's going to go good. Of course. I mean, everything that I've done has gone. Gone, you know, again, overstating it some, but to where. Now I feel like there's this sense of like, I'm hanging on to him. I don't know how it's going to go, but I'm just trusting in him more than my own quote unquote, gifts, abilities, my.
Mark McKinney [00:09:50]:
My ability to charm my way into or out of a situation. And literally, I think there's a reason why I had to go through that. And it's. I think it's really just to kind of point to him saying it's. It's him doing whatever it is that he's doing here. It's nothing. It's not because I'm smart. It's not because I'm awesome.
Mark McKinney [00:10:08]:
It's. It's literally because of him. And so my faith has changed in the sense of just being more humble, being more reliant upon him, and realizing that it's him who is going to do anything and not. Not me, even though of course he can use us, you know? Does that make sense?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:22]:
Totally.
Mark McKinney [00:10:23]:
No.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:23]:
I love that. And, you know, we all. We all want success, right? We want everything we do to go well. And, you know, that's. That's where you start drawing some bad conclusions and you start thinking things that, you know, and then you. You know, you set yourself up for some scary places in life. But it's. It's.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:10:39]:
You know, when you describe the season you went through, and you kind of get a new kind of clarity, and that's certainly been my story as well. I know for many people can relate with things not working out, you know, the way we envision. Then all of a sudden you go, oh, I see God in this in different ways, and I love that. And I think it has produced some really beautiful things in your story and in your ministry and how this is playing out today. So one of the things that I love about what you guys are doing, and this is where I think you and I initially were, you know, drawn together, you know, the typical church plants. Like, all right, go find an elementary, a junior high, maybe like a performing arts center. You know, something like that. And you rent it out on the weekends, you know, and then people come and you already have the space, and the goal being, you know, get out of there as fast as you can, get your own building and, you know, be big.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:11:30]:
And that's just. It's almost like the playbook. Like, we don't even challenge it anymore. It's like, yeah, that's the way you. You grow it. You decided to go a different route. And again, since I've learned about how you guys are doing this, I just can't stop thinking about this model because it's. It's so intriguing.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:11:47]:
You do church in a brewery. Not. Not an elementary school, not. Not a junior high, not a high school in a brewery in the community. Tell us a little bit about that journey. How. How do you go from being what you and I would both consider a traditional pastor, right, in the more traditional model to now you're the guy doing church out of a brewery.
Mark McKinney [00:12:13]:
Well, initially I didn't write home about it because I grew up in the Midwest and so it was certainly taboo.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:12:18]:
You gotta be a little hush hush about it.
Mark McKinney [00:12:21]:
I mean, honestly, I. Again, I don't know. It wasn't me who picked it. And we stumbled into it is how I tell the story. We stumbled into this and all of a sudden we have realized that God has given us favor and like people of peace. And Covid kind of helped choose it for us in some weird way because we did start out the playbook of the 20th century. Playbook of church planning of. We were in a movie theater, we did this setup and tear down.
Mark McKinney [00:12:46]:
We had a quarter million dollars worth of equipment and trailer and all the. All the stuff you do. And. And I hated it, quite honestly. I hated the theater. It wasn't, it wasn't our vibe, but it was the only viable option in our area. And then Covid happened. And then in California, I mean, literally 18 months of mandated no meeting.
Mark McKinney [00:13:09]:
And at the end of COVID we had done these awkward park gatherings and you know what you did to try and get your people together in a safe way and all that kind of jazz. One of our members came to us and said, hey, I don't know if you want to or not, but we have a winery production room that we don't use on Sundays. Would you want to use that? And at first it was in a different city, about 15 minutes away from where we initially launched. It was totally different setting, all that kind of stuff. And so I had the thought of like, well, it's at bare minimum a place where we can gather a couple of times. And so I said, sure, let's. Let's try it. And man, day one when we met there and we did super stripped down, I mean, we had unloaded a lot of our gear and we had come out of COVID from day one.
Mark McKinney [00:14:01]:
It was like our place. And we had stripped down all of our gear where it was just really simple. And because there was a brewery there, there's a coffee shop and a pizzeria there, and then the winery, it just was like magic. I don't know how else to say it. For me, it was like the vibe we were going for, we just didn't know where it was yet. And literally we dismissed our church. And I said, hey, go grab a drink from one of these places. Coffee, wine, beer, grab a pizza and continue the conversation.
Mark McKinney [00:14:31]:
And man, our people were like, okay, yeah, and it's been that way ever since. And it's just been incredible. The quick version of how we got over into the brewery was the brewmaster, the owner of the brewery, who's right next door to the winery, came to me after three or four weeks, started coming to the church. And he was like, hey, if you ever want to use the brewery for anything, it's yours. So that's where we put our elementary kids first in the brewery warehouse. And so literally, stacks of kegs surrounding the kids, big beer vets, whatever you call them, in the background. And we at the time were meeting in the winery production room as adults. And then I talked to the brewmaster, kind of same time frame, and I just like, hey, who else should I talk to around in this area? And.
Mark McKinney [00:15:21]:
And he was like, oh, you should go talk to Sue. She's opening up a gymnastics place right across the street. And I'm talking like, stone's throw. So I go across the street and I go in, and there's this lady sitting behind the desk. It hadn't opened yet, or whatever. And I'm like, hey, I'm looking for Sue. And she's like, I'm Sue. And I said, hey, I'm Mark, the pastor who has his church meeting in the brewery, you know, and she.
Mark McKinney [00:15:44]:
She just got this big smile. She's like, I've been stalking you guys, watching you guys from a distance. And I just simply said, well, I'm looking for a partnership and just trying to build relationships here in the community. And I don't even know what that means. And she said, like, I'm telling you, like, first sentence out of her mouth was, well, you can use the gymnastics or the gym however you want to on Sunday mornings. And so that's where we put our birth through five or so. And so that's where we have our kids meeting. And it's kind of changed and morphed a little bit because now we're in the.
Mark McKinney [00:16:17]:
The adults are in the brew brewery event space. Our elementary are down in the wine tasting room, and baby and littles are still over at the gym, but we have a beautiful partnership. We just had our. Our church Christmas party in the brewery event space, and sue at Action Academy, she opens up the gym for any of our events, and we get to dump our 40 to 60 kids over there and have a blast in the gymnastics gym. So that's a longer version probably, than the short version, but that's. That's how we got here in this space.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:16:57]:
So I. I can imagine some people listening to this right now are trying to wrap their head around some of the. Some of the things you just said. Like, wait, you're. You're doing a church? How? And. And where? And you know what? So when. When a family comes, I just, I. I just love that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:17:14]:
Like, my imagination of this. And they. They're like, all right, hey, we're. We heard about you guys. We want to check it out. And we have. We have this, you know, son, daughter. And you're like, yeah, take him over here to the wine tasting room, right? I mean, is that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:17:28]:
Is that weird for people? Is it cool? Is it like, I'm a little uncomfortable. Like, my kids are in a very non, Non traditional, you know, environment here. What has that been like?
Mark McKinney [00:17:40]:
Well, you know, you're walking up to this space. It's not like, I mean, you have to mentally think. And I know if you've grown up in church or been around church for a while, you have your idea of what it means to walk up to church. You're in a big parking lot. You're walking towards a big building that's painted real nice, probably has good signage, and kids environments are already, you know, like, all that stuff here. You're literally parking and you're walking down the alley. That's what this area is called, is the alley of a brewery and a winery and a coffee shop and a pizza joint. And so I think it already kind of takes people's guard down a little bit.
Mark McKinney [00:18:22]:
And I think you kind of are forced to reconcile already. Like, okay, this is going to be different. This is going to be not your norm. And. And we don't do like normal kids, chicken. We. We ditch that because we want to make it easy for people who show up on the alley and, hey, just drop your kid off. Hey, bring your kid on in.
Mark McKinney [00:18:43]:
But, you know, like, if you're in church land, it's like, well, you know, let's get a retinal scan and. And, you know, get. Get your background. I mean, like, we still do background checks for our volunteers, but it's just less formal. And I think people are disarmed by that. There have been a few people who I think have said, I don't know if that's for me. And quite honestly, they don't stay because we are a church in a brewery and their kid is learning about Jesus next to a wine barrel. I.
Mark McKinney [00:19:13]:
I think it's biblical, but it's just different. And so it creates a different kind of demographic, quite honestly, which are mostly, it's a lot of d. Churched People. And I would say there are a quarter. Quarter of our people are churched, and then there's unchurched people who are coming. Who they were coming to get a beer or a glass of wine or a coffee, and. And wait a minute. Church meets here? And.
Mark McKinney [00:19:41]:
Yeah, you know, so that's pretty. Pretty unique. But, yeah, it. It kind of weeds out churchy people. And I mean that in the most positive sense. I really do. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but it. It just.
Mark McKinney [00:19:54]:
If you like it, you're gonna. You're gonna say if you don't, it's. It's definitely in your face. I mean, the smell sometimes is like, oh, man, they're definitely brewing something up in here, you know?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:20:04]:
So, yeah, I don't imagine that would be, like, a lot of people on the fence there. I. I think that you would pretty quickly realize, hey, I'm really into this, and this is really co. Not at all. Yeah, we're looking for.
Mark McKinney [00:20:18]:
Yeah, I mean, I. Two quick stories. There's a guy who. His. His weekly thing, probably early 30s. I had two kids. Their weekly thing was to grab breakfast burritos, come over to the alley and get coffee and stuff. Was kind of hitting the fan in their world.
Mark McKinney [00:20:33]:
And they were kind of like, well, we need to. Probably should do something with our. You know, get our act together, you know. Well, we've been hearing this church meeting down the alleyway. Maybe we should check that out. And they literally just started coming. And he literally said to me, you know, this is going on a couple months ago. But he said, dude, if you would have told me six months ago, I love going to church, I would have laughed in your face.
Mark McKinney [00:20:58]:
And so there's one quick story. Another. Another group of people that we are finding is our niche. It's more of a boomer generation where there are wives who have been going to church forever, and their husbands are like, I'll see you after church. You know, but they don't go. But literally, you know, just this last weekend, a guy named Robert, he's like, you know, I've tried some of her churches, and, you know, I just. I just never can get past certain things. Blah, blah, blah.
Mark McKinney [00:21:28]:
He's like, but this is my place. This is. I love coming to my church, and this is my place. And his wife's sitting right there. I don't know if she would choose necessarily to continue to keep coming to Reunion always, but because her husband fits and feels like he's there, she's. She's all about it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:46]:
So I love that.
Mark McKinney [00:21:48]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:21:48]:
What do you think you've learned in doing church in a non traditional space for church?
Mark McKinney [00:21:56]:
Oh, man, a lot. It's fun. First of all, there's like, it's like, it's like there's so many different pendulum swings. Like, it's really fun, but, man, it's hard, you know, like, we don't have our own space. We share it. And so as much as I love the idea of having our own space, well, we, you know, we don't have the bills and the upkeep and all that stuff, you know, is a bonus. But I would say I've enjoyed this season of ministry more than I have in the past. You know, I can't even count, you know, it just is so fresh for me.
Mark McKinney [00:22:30]:
And so my learnings are you have to be flexible. I mean, it just dictates that you're flexible. Literally. I've learned the value of like our church being in the middle of the marketplace. I mean, like, it's. It's really incredible just to see what it does to have like this faith component that's like a part of the conversation when we're planning for Oktoberfest. Like, I mean, I'm sitting around this table, I'm invited. We are, our church is invited to participate in Oktoberfest and Freelings Fest.
Mark McKinney [00:23:04]:
And so, like, you have to switch your mentality. I guess maybe as the learning, the more traditional would be like, well, we're going to pass out flyers and we're going to, you know, do, I don't know, something churchy. Instead, it's more about serving. I think we have to learn how to serve and be for the people who we are there with and the businesses. And I think that's one of the learnings right now that I'm trying to maybe sharpen or dive deeper into of. What does it mean to really serve the businesses that we have been partnering with or rubbing shoulders with as opposed to trying to get our name out there, you know, because again, that's kind of part of church planning is like, well, at the end of the day, you still need people or you want people to grow and all that kind of stuff. But I really have come to this understanding and belief that if, if we're serving the people who, the businesses, the owners of this alley, I think it's just gonna only God's gonna get the increase and give the increase to whatever it is that he might want to do in and through us. And so that' of a meandering answer.
Mark McKinney [00:24:08]:
I Think the biggest learning is really just we have to be flexible and we have to serve and be there to serve those without an ulterior motive to get something back. Does that make sense? Because we can serve. Hoping you're going to scratch my back, you know, type of a thing.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:24:28]:
I actually love the, Almost the default posture this puts you in, because I, I think, you know, and being on numerous church staffs over the years, you know, all, all churches, I think, want to be part of the community. They want to be flexible. You know, they want to. They, they always say, yeah, we want to do these things.
Mark McKinney [00:24:45]:
Yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:24:46]:
But when you own everything and especially the nicer your campuses, there's very much a sense of, we have our own place in this. Come to us. You know, we have our chips and, you know, and you kind of, you, you. You view everything from that point of view, whereas your starting point is different where it's. It's not your space to claim and just own it however you want. You. You automatically are in this kind of like mutual flourishing relationship with the businesses, right? Like where it's like, you can't just say, yeah, we, we're gonna have it this week and we need it all week, and you know, tough luck. It's like, no, you can't say that.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:25:24]:
So then you have to work with them, which then puts you. It would seem like it by default puts you into a much more. Humble is the word you use, which is great. Humble posture toward the actual people in the community, which I gotta think would be easier to produce healthy relationships rather than, hey, come to our event, Come to our thing. Come do this on our terms. And so do you think there's something there like that, that just in the very nature of this, it, like. Oh, like lends itself, I guess, to, to being a, A better relational build with the community.
Mark McKinney [00:26:06]:
I mean, yeah, 100. Because like you said, it almost forces you or puts you automatically in the seat of, we're along for the ride, we're not the one driving. And I'll give you what I feel like is a great example. Again, we've been in this environment up on three years, four years, three and a half years, and we've participated in multiple. I know more about German beer festivals than I ever thought I would, but we're always invited. They're always. And they do like this little farmer's market and, you know, all kinds of vendors show up to these festivals and all that kind of stuff. And they've always said, hey, you have a table here.
Mark McKinney [00:26:46]:
We want you to be a part of this. And so the very first one, we did whatever it is that you might imagine church planners would do at some kind of festival like this. We had our tent, we had our sign, we had our pamphlets, we had our, our labeled water bottles. And dude, these people were showing up to drink beer. They weren't showing up to talk to us about our church. So that was year one. Year two was okay, let's change it up a little bit. Let's do like a little bit of a bake sale for a good cause, for something in the community.
Mark McKinney [00:27:20]:
And oh yeah, by the way, we have a few church stuff things, church item pamphlets or whatever, invite cards. Again, both of those just felt forced. Felt like you're just trying too hard. And these are it's learnings for us. We're just kind of like, I guess we should do this or this. And now the third one, the third year, we, we no longer put a table out, but we, they use our, all of our sound equipment for their bands because they play music non stop for two days straight. They use our lighting, they use, we provide the sound people for it. We ourselves are busing tables with all the beer steins and stuff.
Mark McKinney [00:28:00]:
And, and we also are just showing up. I mean it's kind of like their Christmas and Easter. They, they. We show up and just, we try their Oktoberfest beer and we stand around with. There's a brew brewmaster community from a lot of the area brew breweries that show up to these things. And so I get to rub shoulders with some, these other breweries and the guys who are also in the warehouse making the beer, I get to pat them on the back and say, hey, this tastes great. Or you know, this is what a great opportunity. And you know, you're just there to serve them.
Mark McKinney [00:28:33]:
And that's kind of the evolution of like original mindset was how do we promote ourselves, how can we get our name out there to. Now it's more about how can we just be a part of this community and serve it. And again we had to stumble and stub our toes and get the doors, you know, like, I mean it was, there was a lot of that to get to this point where I really truly believe us being in the marketplace, us being in this position where we don't own the building, there has been a unique dynamic that it has forced us. And we're still trying to figure it out. I mean we're still trying to learn how do we be a part of this community and, and serve it. But it really does force us into a unique position of, hey, whatever we can do to support you.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:29:18]:
Right?
Mark McKinney [00:29:19]:
As opposed to, we're putting on this event, we're getting the bounce houses and this and that and all that kind of stuff. You come to us, we actually are in with it with them. And it's. It's so, I mean, dude, it's just so. I get. I get. I get excited about it. I mean, it's just really, really something so powerful for me.
Mark McKinney [00:29:40]:
So.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:29:41]:
No, and this is where, again, this is like when, When I started learning about your model, it just intrigued me of, what if more people did this? You know, what if this. What if this got added as an option in the modern playbook? You know, where it's like, it doesn't have to do it that way. You could try this way. And, and this way has a lot of pros, it seems like, to me, of these things, of the way it allows you to connect with your community. So here's a question then, to someone who's listening, going, all right, should we entertain this? You know, should more people do this? Do you think more church communities should try meeting in these kind of spaces?
Mark McKinney [00:30:17]:
I mean, I. The easy answer, the short answer is yes, because I believe it's a huge opportunity. I mean, even from a. Just a pure brewery standpoint, you know, craft brewing industry, I mean, it's. It's so big. I mean, it's just. There's a brewery everywhere, and it's usually locally owned, and they generally have some kind of place for a musician to play while people are having a good time, all that kind of stuff. And so there are obstacles for sure.
Mark McKinney [00:30:48]:
Where do you put your kids? What do you, you know, how do you. How do you go about it? But I personally believe it's a huge opportunity. That being said, I think you also have to have the right person or the right group of people doing it. I think coming into it, because I'm. I'm protective now of my community. I'm protective of the brewery and the winery and the pizza and the craft house because I don't want people coming in placing their quote, unquote church model burdens on, you know, these people. So I want it to be the right people. I would want it to be the right people who are flexible, who can kind of hang with this vibe and come at it like I think Jesus would.
Mark McKinney [00:31:31]:
And I think it's, hey, I'm going to build a relationship. I'm going to trust that God's going to do something within this Relationship to where I'll be able to speak truth. And I could share two or three stories from even this last month of where it's been a long time coming. But, man, I've had some really great conversations within the last week or two that I'm like, I never would have thought that happened, but because I don't. I don't think I came in to judge them and tell them they're all wrong or doing this. Like, I have, you know, like, a lot of relational equity now with some of these people. So, yes, I think they should look into it. You should pray about it.
Mark McKinney [00:32:06]:
And if you have the right person, I think. I think it would be. And here's, here's the thing that, that we're trying, that I'm trying to think through. If we do this again somewhere locally, how do we show up at another brewery and make it our space for a season before we ever even say we're launching something out of here? Does that make sense?
Jeremy Jernigan [00:32:27]:
Yeah.
Mark McKinney [00:32:28]:
Hey, we have a couple of. We call our community gatherings around the table our family reunions. Well, what would it look like for these two or three family reunions? Just to say that brewery is going to be your brewery, and if you have an event or a party that you want to have, if you, you know, whatever it's. That's going to be your place that you go to. And all of a sudden for six months, seven months, whatever it is, that's your place. You build a relationship, you're building community within that community, and then it's not so much out of nowhere you're dropping this idea, right? Hey, we want to do this church thing here. No. Oh, you're a known entity now.
Mark McKinney [00:33:04]:
So that's something that I'm trying to process through how we would go about that, but that's something that I would love to pass on to somebody else, you know, who might want to do it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:13]:
So it also seems like there has to be some probably honest conversations where if, you know, a church or. Or even a new community emerging, you know, was thinking, oh, this will be a great idea if your goal is to do church the normal way, the traditional way, and just insert it into this, like you were mentioning, it's probably not going to fit. So it would take, it seems like a willingness to say, we're going to reinvent this thing. We're gonna hold this loosely, the model loosely, as we're teaching kids next to a wine barrel. You know, like, there's. There's gonna be some give and take, take here. Even what you mentioned of like checking kids in, I can imagine quite a few churches or church planters would be like, well, no, there's a way. You got to do it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:33:56]:
And so it seems like there'd be quite a bit of that where it's like you either got to commit to this or not. Like, this is not something you just add on to a package that you already have.
Mark McKinney [00:34:06]:
Yeah, I, I mean, I agree. I, I just, you know, thinking back six, seven years ago, when I started this journey of wanting to plant a church, this brewery idea wasn't even there. There were certain bars here in our town. There were there. There was another brewery that was getting ready to launch that I had approached for sure just to see. But I wasn't looking at it from how I would look at it now. Right. I mean, I was looking at it from a.
Mark McKinney [00:34:30]:
It would be cool vibes, cool space. But now it's more about, okay, how do, how do we bring the gospel to this situation? How do we show up best here for Jesus? And you certainly have to. You can't come in and say, well, here's how we are going to do it. Yeah, I think there has to be a partnership and a flexibility and a holding loosely. You know, I mean, it's so cliche to say, what's that old saying? You probably know better than I do. At the end, the message never change, but the methods, you know, do or need to or whatever. And I certainly think that's applicable here for sure.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:35:06]:
Yeah, that's good.
Mark McKinney [00:35:07]:
And I think you also have to, you know, you can still, I think, I don't want people to hear like, you have to change who you are, like Michelle and I. And part of Reunion's DNA is that we are very much advocates for the, the people who I would call living in the shadows of our community. People who have trauma, people who have ptsd, people who have anxiety, families who are struggling because they're caring for a kid who might have a certain diagnosis or, or one of whatever that. We still do that here. We still have that mentality here. It just so happens it fits. Like the whole no checking in is because we have several kids that are like, they hate the sticker that you put on. You know, like it's a sensory overload for them and they, they can't handle that sticker thing.
Mark McKinney [00:35:57]:
And so we quit doing check in because we had so many kids that just, that was a, a trigger for them.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:36:05]:
Interesting.
Mark McKinney [00:36:06]:
And so, you know that, that. But that's part of the vibe for us Here is like, well, it actually works here, you know, for us not to do that. And, you know, again, we still get information and all that kind of stuff, parents and all that jazz. But you don't have to. You don't have to change who you are.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:36:20]:
Right.
Mark McKinney [00:36:21]:
But I do think you have to change maybe your mentality if you've grown up in or been in a traditional church for a while, for sure.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:36:28]:
Yeah, that's great. Now let's. Let's dive in a little bit more on what you just mentioned, because that is some of the DNA unique to you, not just in the setting, but in who God has wired you guys as a community to be. And one of the phrases that you use quite a bit, and I've seen this all over your website and everything, is that you are a trauma informed church. And I spent a lot of time in church world. That's not a phrase you see everywhere. That's kind of one of those, like, oh, that's something. That's something, you know, unique to you guys.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:36:57]:
I don't see a lot of churches saying that. What does it mean to be a trauma informed church?
Mark McKinney [00:37:03]:
Well, if my wife were here, she would give you a much better answer than I would. But really, it means that we understand that people show up carrying some kind of trauma in their past. And I think in the, in the past, we would say, hey, yeah, that's hard. Suck it up. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. Or, yeah, you know, I had an abusive family member too. But that doesn't, you know, like, I mean, to where we would almost kind of like dismiss it. And being a trauma, informed church actually means we want to own it, that we all have trauma, that we all have experienced some kind of, you know, hardship.
Mark McKinney [00:37:48]:
And because of COVID we certainly, most certainly have all experienced the trauma of being isolated. Your kids have been, you know, challenged and changed because of what happened through Covid, et cetera. And so really, it just means, I think, creating a culture that welcomes people even when it's hard. You know, if a parent, you know, in particular, moms are probably more on this spectrum than dads, but that, you know, a mom, when she shows up to check her kid in and she's been uninvited from a church before or the church that she used to go to said, we can't handle your kid anymore because he's. He acts out, or he. He might just be triggered because of loud noises or lights or. Or some of the other kids have learned that if they poke or Push certain buttons with him or her, then they can get a good reaction that they want. And so what a mom wants to hear is we may not know exactly how your kid's gonna respond, but we got it.
Mark McKinney [00:38:58]:
We got it. We'll handle it, and we're not afraid of it. You're welcome here. And I think that goes for adults, too, that you can show up here, you may have had, again, an abusive person in your life. And so you don't trust authority figures. Okay? You don't. You know, I get it. You.
Mark McKinney [00:39:16]:
You come at me or one of the other staff members with a certain angle of, like, distrust. Okay? That's okay. We'll. We'll deal with it. We'll work through it, building trust, building relationships. And so again, there's. There's six other hours that I would love to give a definition to this. And.
Mark McKinney [00:39:38]:
But being trauma informed literally means creating a culture of understanding that we all have trauma and we. We shouldn't be afraid of it, and we shouldn't dismiss it, and we need to learn how to live with it and grow in it and. And help each other heal in it, you know, because I think the church. A lot of times we say. I say, you know, a lot of times we put on the church face on Sunday morning, and then we go home on Monday or Sunday afternoon, and, man, we're a wreck. Bring. Bring the wreck. You know, just bring it.
Mark McKinney [00:40:13]:
And. And let's. Let's just acknowledge it. And I think it's more healthy, you know, I mean, you know, I think sometimes my family. I don't think my mom or dad will listen to this. My sister may. But, you know, my. We.
Mark McKinney [00:40:26]:
My. My mom and dad, they kind of owned that. We were crazy. I mean, we were just, you know, I mean, we weren't perfect. And I think there's some health in that, you know, of just like, saying, yeah, we a little nuts. And. And I think, honestly, a church needs to do that. We're dysfunctional.
Mark McKinney [00:40:42]:
We're dysfunctional people. That's why we need Jesus. And so what questions does that raise up in you? As I'm saying? Like, does that. Is that clear? Does that. Because I really want the listeners to understand what I'm saying. I feel like I'm a little all over the place with that answer, but.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:40:57]:
Well, I think, like, the way you normally hear this in church, and this is a phrase I've. I've seen this in numerous churches. Churches is. They'll say, you know, no perfect people allowed here. And it's always Kind of tongue in cheek, you know, like, wink, wink, hey, if you're perfect, you're not welcome here. You know, like, obviously, no one's perfect. But it strikes me as that phrase has a certain level of superficiality to it where it's, you know, like, hey, you know, bring your stuff. But I think the typical person's wondering how much could you handle, you know, like.
Mark McKinney [00:41:30]:
Right, sure, yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:41:31]:
Like, no one's claiming to be perfect, but, like, are you really prepared if I were to be honest with you, if I were to share this thing or if I were to show you my family, if I were to show you what's going on with my kid? You know, Like, I think that's where most people, they hear a phrase like that. What you seem to be doing is. Is the same idea in basic idea, but, like, the other end of the spectrum where you're almost saying, like. Like, do your worst. Like, we're. We're trauma informed. What have you got? Like, what's your trauma? What's your ptsd? Like, bring it on in. As if it's the most normal thing you could bring.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:42:09]:
So rather than saying, like, hey, if you're perfect, you can't be here, which, like, no one. No one thinks they're perfect, you know, and that's not. I don't know, I just always thought that was a miss. But what you're saying is, like, literally, bring your kid that has challenges, bring your relationship that is rocky, bring your family that's got all this. I just don't. I'll be honest with you, Mark. I don't hear a lot of churches talk that way where, like. Like, we know you've got trauma, and we're welcoming that trauma in.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:42:39]:
And I do think the typical person, probably many of them listening to this episode, have a real skepticism to be vulnerable with a church community, to be vulnerable with a pastor, because they've been burned. They. They have, you know, taken the chance to say, okay, I'll show you what I'm going through. And then it's cost them friends or community or a position in a church. You know, it's like, oh, I shouldn't have shared that with you. So where I hear you saying that, it's almost like, no, we actually mean this. Like, we actually are welcoming this. And I don't know.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:43:16]:
I mean, maybe someone's like, well, it's. You know, they're saying the same thing. It. It feels different to me, at least in the verbiage that I'm hearing from you.
Mark McKinney [00:43:24]:
Yeah, well, I Want to be careful, because I think sometimes when we talk about this kind of stuff, we could sound like we're ragging on other churches. And that's not my heart, but unfortunately, it's where we have some of our examples from the hurt in this area. Yeah. And so I'll share just briefly from my own personal experience. My wife was going, I was traveling, and she took our kids to a church. And it's huge, huge, great church in the community. And they said that they have a special needs ministry for kids and our kids. And we've said this before, like, you know, just because you.
Mark McKinney [00:44:10]:
Just because you can't see it doesn't mean that you don't have something going on. And my kids are great. They're amazing. But they do respond certain ways given certain circumstances or they're processing certain things differently. And so this church. Church kind of said, hey, we. We have this, you know, mentality. And again, I wouldn't say our kids have things that you see.
Mark McKinney [00:44:31]:
They have anxiety. You know, there's anxiety. And. And that comes out in different ways. Anyways, I'm not going to share the whole story, but our kid got confronted because of some of his actions. And basically we got asked to not come back because we couldn't, because the rules weren't being followed. And I think ultimately, and we don't always nail it. I think ultimately you're right that the church has botched the conversation.
Mark McKinney [00:44:59]:
We've botched the. The handling of things. Whether you want to. Some of the popular ones of the LGBTQ stuff or the race stuff or the political stuff, we. We've botched it. But even. Even whittling it down to personal people, we. We.
Mark McKinney [00:45:21]:
I think from a mega. I don't even want to use that word from a church standpoint, because it happens in all sizes. It happens in all sizes. We have a certain formula, we have a certain way. We have a certain thing that wants to care for the masses. And if you can vibe with that, if you can roll with that, great. But if you can't, I'm not sure if we. We want you around again.
Mark McKinney [00:45:52]:
We won't ever say that out loud.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:45:53]:
Right.
Mark McKinney [00:45:54]:
But there are rules or unspoken rules or unspoken things. And I think, like, what Reunion is trying to do is literally just saying we are a community of dysfunctional people who have grown up. I had a solid. I had a great family, but we still. We, you know, we're. We're broken people. And I. And I.
Mark McKinney [00:46:18]:
And I think that's part of it.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:46:19]:
Right.
Mark McKinney [00:46:20]:
We have to share it. From the stage, we have to be vulnerable from the stage. We have to say things and own our own crap. From the stage, to lead by example, to help people, you know, and we have to be willing to have those conversations. We had a first season. We had a couple coming. Two ladies who were seeing each other and they were coming to reunion. And, you know, quite honestly, it was the first time in my chair as the lead pastor that I was having to process.
Mark McKinney [00:46:48]:
How do we navigate this conversation? You know, we. We began to, you know, say, hey, one of them wanted to serve in our children's. Okay, let's. Yeah, let's. Let's. Let's figure that out. But I was. I was determined to have a relationship with.
Mark McKinney [00:47:03]:
To build a relationship with them so that we could talk whatever we wanted or needed to talk about in the future from a relational standpoint, as opposed to a rule standpoint. And so I think that's ultimately what we're saying is we want the relationship, even if it's crappy or if it's filled with baggage or, you know, we don't understand each other, you know, and it's easy to say that. I mean, it's. It's. I think that's the other problem is that we don't have time to slow down to do relational stuff.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:47:33]:
Yeah.
Mark McKinney [00:47:33]:
And the hard. And the hard work, and that's. That's hard. That's really hard. So there's. There's many things that I would love to say that I know I'm forgetting to say, but I think that's. I'm just kind of trying to share from. From the heart what I think we're trying to say.
Mark McKinney [00:47:49]:
Again, not. Not even coming close to nailing it or being perfect at it. I think we're learning, and that's what it is. Being trauma informed means you're learning because there's new trauma for people each and every day.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:48:02]:
Yeah.
Mark McKinney [00:48:03]:
And I think that's just where we have to lean into Jesus.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:48:07]:
So now you and I have talked about the. The mechanisms of the American Evangelical Church, and you and I each have different phrases for it. I call it the. The machine of the church. What's your phrase for it?
Mark McKinney [00:48:23]:
You got to feed the beast.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:48:25]:
Gotta feed the beast. That's right. So you talk about feeding the beast, I talk about keeping the machine running. Both are the same idea of if you do certain things, the system works well. If you don't do those certain things well, I. I didn't do those things well, which is why my experience Played out the way it did. But then I also realized I don't wanna. I don't wanna spend my life feeding that machine.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:48:45]:
And you have, you know, come to similar conclusions. What have you learned not only just in planting a church, but in planting a church in a brewery? What has this taught you about the beast, about the machine of the evangelical church?
Mark McKinney [00:49:00]:
That's a loaded. It's a really loaded question. Well, I have learned that God uses and will continue to use, quote, unquote, the machine. And we have benefited from large churches and have had some really amazing partners in those large churches. And I mean, we're here today because we had some amazing partners during COVID and I had buddies here around that had to shut their churches down, because they didn't. And so there certainly are some good, there's great things. But what I have come to learn or land on is that, that I personally enjoy not having a mortgage to try and pay off or to pay down. And, and I think that's been a huge, huge blessing or learning.
Mark McKinney [00:49:58]:
And, you know, our situation's really unique. I don't know if it'll always be like this for people who try to do the brewery thing, you know, but our situation is really unique and, and it's been a blessing to not have to worry about the $30,000 a month rent her or down or mortgage payment that you have when it comes to having some of those things, you know, you're more flexible, you have more autonomy to be able to say, hey, you know, I mean, literally during Oktoberfest, we said, hey, we're gonna meet in the park this week and have a family family day. And we had a couple of songs that we sang. And I had a brief little 5, 10 minute devotional, but we ate and had coffee and spent time developing our relationships. And so, but in the, in the machine or in the Beast, Boy, you gotta, you gotta do the deal. You gotta have the, the services and the kids and everything dialed in and all that kind of stuff. And so, you know, it allows us to have more flexibility and more freedom to do different things. And so, like, we have about three to five times a year these weekends where we just don't do church, normal church service and whatnot.
Mark McKinney [00:51:09]:
We have a camping weekend. And so we, we say, hey, we'd love for you to come be part of our camping weekend, but we're not gonna have church this weekend, you know, and we of course let people know about. During the summer we have a beach day and, you know, so on and so Forth. And so it's, it's really a unique way to build community and also just a freshness again where I'm like. And I'm. I get stuck in my traditional ways. My wife is a little bit more what I call my, you know, my personal profit or my personal. People listening to this might say, oh, this guy's really into the weird stuff.
Mark McKinney [00:51:42]:
I'm just saying she, she sees things way, way, way sooner than, Than I do.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:51:48]:
Just blame it on the wine, Mark. Blame it on the wine.
Mark McKinney [00:51:50]:
Yeah, that's what I'll blame. I'll blame it on the juggernaut, really. Honestly. She has suggested things that probably in the past where I would have said, or as she would say, you did say, I don't think so, but where she has said we should do. And we've done it and I've been nervous about it, but we did it and it was like massively successful. And I, I would say it fits more into our culture. And, and I would encourage guys, if you, you know, you need to listen more to your, Your wife. I mean, that's probably another thing that it has allowed me to do is, is, you know, because church used to be my thing and hers was like the home and Karen and doing all that stuff.
Mark McKinney [00:52:31]:
But now we're in it together way more than we ever were. And you know, there's a learning process that comes with that. But I have learned to love. Love that more than. Than, Than be frustrated by it because. Because, you know, we're different people and, and she's black and white and I live a lot in the gray. And that all tends to be a little tricky sometimes. But, yeah, probably not even close to the answer or close to your question, whatever.
Mark McKinney [00:52:59]:
What have I learned or what. But I love it. I love, I love not having to, you know, we still. There's still that tension back to the beginning of the question. There's still the tension of like, man, we still gotta. We still do have bills to pay. We still do want to grow, but this is just a different path, different way of growing. And measurables.
Mark McKinney [00:53:21]:
What is it that we are actually measuring? Of course we want to know how many people are coming, but we don't. I don't. I can't remember the last time I asked how many people were coming, but I do know how many. I do want to know how many people are in our, in our family reunions. I do want to know how many people are in our discipling group groups. Man, I do want to know how many People we're meeting with in. During the week, you know, so just changes. Changes my perspective.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:53:49]:
Yeah, that's great. All right, I'm gonna switch gears on us. Let's talk wine for a second. I. I love. I love asking our guests this question. If I were to. To ask you to think about just a highlight moment, you drinking wine.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:54:06]:
So could be an incredible bottle, an incredible glass. Could have been the company you're with, the environment. If you think about, like, man, that wine was as good as it can get. I was so amazing. What's a memory that comes to your mind? Can you describe it for us?
Mark McKinney [00:54:24]:
Yeah, I referenced it earlier, but I can't remember how far into covet it was. But I think we all in the states that were more locked down than not. You kind of had your circle of trust of people and that. Our family reunion, we had. We had about 10 families that were like. Those were our people, and our kids were hanging out, and it was. It was a beautiful season. Well, we decided to go rent a house in Paso Robles and just kind of get out.
Mark McKinney [00:54:52]:
Get out of the city for a season. And the first winery that we went to, and this was really, like, doing group stuff outside of, like, lockdown was, you know, it was just kind of weird. It felt weird when you started doing it again, you know, it was like, should we do this? Can we do. You know, like, it was just. Because California just was freaky. But we went to this place called Austin Hope Winery, and it just. The vibe was great. The wine was great.
Mark McKinney [00:55:20]:
The laughter was great. The girls were over at their table, and we could hear them laughing, and us guys were over at our table hanging out, doing our thing. And. And, you know, and it was great wine. They had this one called the grape was Merdova. I can't remember the actual bottle name, but they. They had this Merdova. And I just.
Mark McKinney [00:55:41]:
Man, I remember taking a sip of that, and I was like, dude, this is incredible. Glass of wine. And again, sun was setting in the background, hills in the back. I mean, it was just like birds chirping. Yeah, it was. It was incredible. So it was a great. That's.
Mark McKinney [00:55:56]:
That's probably one of my favorite, favorite glasses right there.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:55:59]:
That's great. All right, let's close with some questions that I like to ask each guest, and we get to compare your answers. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about?
Mark McKinney [00:56:11]:
Yeah, I mean, I think I go back to one of my earlier stories that I shared, and that was just in my pride. And I wouldn't have ever said this out loud back in the day because I don't know if I would have been able to internalize it the right way or to it come out the right way. But, like, you know, I used to probably live in a world where I thought I was. I kind of had a special sauce. And, man, we go through traumatic events and hard things and difficult things, and really, I. I truly believe that one of the reasons why we had to go through it so that I could just say it was all God, not me, and give him the honor and the glory of just, like. I mean, I'm only sitting here talking to you about my church that meets in a brewery because of Him. Like, and.
Mark McKinney [00:56:59]:
And I believe that. I mean, I believe that we went through some really, really crazy hard seasons and some seasons that I just was like, you thought you were special, or, you know, you thought you had a good plan. And that thing has been up in smoke for, you know, a year now, and. And really, all I had to go off of was in my basement and. And I hear God saying, you know, brought you here to start a movement for the lost and the fatherless. Keep going. I got this. And, like, when you have nothing else to hold on to, you're holding on to those words for dear life.
Mark McKinney [00:57:39]:
And I really didn't know what that meant except for just each day. And so my belief would be that I used to have would be like, I brought something to the table. My belief is that it's all him. If he wants it to do, if he wants it to go, it's going to be all him. And I need to probably listen to that again when you put the podcast out there to remind myself.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:58:00]:
You can scrub to that part.
Mark McKinney [00:58:02]:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Jernigan [00:58:03]:
So what do you see as the main issues facing Christianity in America today?
Mark McKinney [00:58:10]:
I think out of all our conversation, I'm glad I get to re answer this, because, you know, I think in the previous one, I did say, I think, you know, our conversations around, you know, some of the typical answers, the LGBTQ and race and politics, I think those are certainly big issues and as we referenced earlier, probably have messed them up, and I'm complicit in that. I'm sure I've jacked that up, too. But I think it's. I think ultimately it comes to discipling people, and I know that that word has a lot of baggage and it has a lot of meaning. Probably for every single person listening, they have a different meaning of what that looks like or what that means. And yet I believe that if the American church really wanted to tackle getting serious about having their people follow Jesus and then have other people follow Jesus like they're following Jesus and so on and so forth, it would. It would change everything. And ultimately, I feel like we have labeled discipleship as far as, like, hey, well, you're attending two out of the four weekends.
Mark McKinney [00:59:23]:
You're attending a small group, and, gosh, you're really knocking it out of the park because you're tithing or giving, and, man, you're superman if you're volunteering on top of all that other stuff, you're a disciple now. And ultimately that's. Those are marks of a disciple. But I mean, discipling is you leaving someone else to follow Jesus as you're following him, and then they start doing that with someone else and so on and so forth. And. And I believe if we would get serious about that, it's messy, it's hard, and it's wonky. But I think that's the biggest issue, quite honestly, because you can. You could.
Mark McKinney [01:00:02]:
You could then walk into those conversations of some of those other bigger topics if you're. If you're listening to the spirit, if you're reading the Word and you're obeying what it's saying to do, I mean, instead of listening to your own opinions, you know, And I think that that's. That that'll change everything if we could get serious about that.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:00:26]:
Love it. What is something that's blowing your mind right now?
Mark McKinney [01:00:34]:
Two things, maybe three, but two. One is the. I mean, the. The very surfacey thing is the AI stuff. I mean, to me, that stuff's crazy. It's bananas. I don't know. To me, it's fascinating.
Mark McKinney [01:00:48]:
I've had a conversation with somebody who, you know, they believe it's kind of like a little bit of the. Of the devil, you know, and like, it's gonna diminish and reduce and keep people from growing in their faith. And that. That, you know, may be true because you. You can, like, type in your. You know, what. What should I believe about?
Jeremy Jernigan [01:01:06]:
Or whatever.
Mark McKinney [01:01:07]:
But. But there's still some crazy, amazing things. Like, I mean, I. We have power outages here, and I. Somebody gave me a generator, and I hadn't tried to start it in years. And I was like, hey, I need you to be a small engine specialist. And my generator's not working. What do you think the problem is? And within 10 minutes, I had it running.
Mark McKinney [01:01:26]:
And really, literally, I had, like, my own personal mechanic through the Chat GPT. So to me, that was just, you know, that's just kind of mind blowing. And then the other one that's probably more serious is, man, I, I, we've shared a little bit of our family and, and some of the blessings and the, and the struggles, but I have a 19 year old right now who is maturing and some of the things that he's saying and learning and deciding, I'm just like, wow, this is awesome. Like, I'm so proud of him. I'm so, like, I, I just, as a dad, I'm just like bursting with pride over some of the things that, you know, and it's not like revolutionary stuff. It's, it's, it's, but it's, but it is, you know, and so that's, that's blowing my mind just being a dad and, and you know, parenting a kid for 19 years and seeing the arc of, you know, all the things that go with that to today where I'm like, okay, man, there's something going on here. That's pretty awesome.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:02:30]:
So, yeah, that's super cool. What's a problem you're trying to solve?
Mark McKinney [01:02:36]:
You know, I, I said it earlier of like, how do we serve our community? How do we serve our, the people that were the business owners and the employees of the alley where the brewery and the winery and the craft, craft house and the pizza joint are. That's a problem or a good challenge? I don't know if it's a, it's a problem. It's more of a challenge of like, how do we, how do we not just feel like we're inserting ourselves into this conversation, you know, in a forced way, but instead, how are we grafting. How does God want to graft us into that? And then, and then the other one is, is the more vulnerable side of like, how do, like we're worn out. My wife and I, we're, we're just, we're just beat down, tired. And I think I was talking with a buddy of mine who's got a huge church and I won't say the city because, you know, you could probably guess like out of three guys who it would be. But I have a buddy who, he's exhausted too, and it's a huge church and he's. But the amount of content a pastor has to produce, amount of leadership decisions a guy has to make, whether you have a church of 150 and a brewery or 6,000 in a city, I mean, like, it's, it's and, and also be like A pastor and a sage advice, you know, like, I mean, it's unrealistic.
Mark McKinney [01:03:57]:
It's unrealistic. And oh yeah, by the way, you do have bills to pay. Oh yeah, by the way, you do have to go out and raise funds. Oh yeah, by the way, you do have to navigate, you know, all kinds of stuff and it's just exhausting. And so how do you have a healthy rhythm? How do you have a healthy life? And I don't, I don't have the answer for that right now because of our family dynamics and the church dynamics and just life. And, and so that's a, that's a real sticky one for me right now. And I don't have a great answer. And I know people will say, well, you should take a Sabbath and you need to take a sabbatical or you need to.
Mark McKinney [01:04:34]:
Yes, yes. And if it were that easy. Yes. But it's, it's just not as simple as that. And, and so that's, that's a problem or a challenge I'm trying to, to wrestle down.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:04:49]:
Yeah. What's something you're excited about right now?
Mark McKinney [01:04:54]:
Again, my, my son stuff that, that's, that's something that was exciting or is exciting. I'm excited about the potential that our discipling groups are having. We have kind of like the second generation coming out of like, you know, the staff have kind of all done our, what we call our grow groups and it's disciple making movement practices that, you know, around the world people are using what's called DBS or DMM stuff. It's a very simple form of discipleship. But we have like, like, like the second generation is now getting, going out and finding their people that they feel like God's leading them to. And, and you know, I mean, dude, again, back to the feed the beast. Like, you feel the pressure to multiply and get that done and, and to get out there. But like, we've really just tried to as best we can not feel that pressure.
Mark McKinney [01:05:50]:
And it's been a long, I mean, that get. We're going on like two and a half years and like most people would say, well, you suck at discipling, I guess, because do it better because there's, I mean, how many generations do you have of disciple? You know, like, but we, we have like a second generation that's getting ready to, to start and, and to me, man, that's, that's awesome. I'm excited about that and I'm excited about. Again, I don't want to betray confidence. I know I Talk a lot. And that you're like, dude, wrap it up. Going on. Minute and a half a minute then.
Mark McKinney [01:06:22]:
But I've had some really cool conversations with some of the people where we're doing our church within the last week, two weeks, and, like, big God conversations, and they're wrestling some of their faith down and they're trying to figure it out. And to me, that's, again, fruit of being in it for the long haul and sticking it out. And we. Weird, funky place called a brewery to do church in, but super cool. Exciting, Exciting.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:06:54]:
All right. Is there anything else that you want to add that I may not have asked you about? But we cannot wrap this episode up if you don't get it in.
Mark McKinney [01:07:02]:
I think. I think two things. One is, I would love to just challenge people to think differently. I mean, yeah, we stumbled into this, but I think there's something to this new page and church planning or church. Church in a brewery. And if you want to talk to me about it, I don't. I won't have all the answers. And I'm not going to pretend to be the expert.
Mark McKinney [01:07:22]:
I may be a step in front of you or whatever, but I would love to. I would love to have the conversation if that would be helpful for whoever that is, if they feel led to even just have a conversation or talk through that. And then I would love to just. If. If I don't. I don't know what your audience is, Jeremy, if it's. If it's all over the place, but if you have church leaders to really wrestle down the trauma piece and the people. There's thousands of people in our cities living in the shadows that have felt uninvited, who have felt rejected by the church, or who have felt like they can't.
Mark McKinney [01:08:00]:
Like, church doesn't get them. And what does that mean for us to really try to go after that crew of people instead of just saying, well, if they don't like, it sucks to be them. And I know we wouldn't say that out loud, but I think sometimes we have that vibe. And I just would challenge us and challenge myself, because my wife challenges me a lot to like, hey, we gotta think about these people who are. Who are going through traumatic things by themselves. By themselves. And. And there's thousands of them in every city, wherever.
Mark McKinney [01:08:36]:
Wherever someone's listening to. And so those are a couple of things that come to mind. And maybe. Maybe people who have been burned by the church, hurt by the church, just know we're just trying to figure it out ourselves. And the people who I think society have put on pedestals, called pastors, really are just human, too, and they may have botched something royally. And I'm sorry for that, that I really am, because I'm sure I've botched it. But give. Give Jesus a chance.
Mark McKinney [01:09:04]:
He won't disappoint you, even though us humans will. So that's what I'd say.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:09:09]:
It's a good word, Mark. If someone's digging this and they're like, I like this guy, I want to know more. I want to follow up. How can people reach you online?
Mark McKinney [01:09:19]:
Yeah, I mean, you can follow or find me on Instagram. Give this caveat. It's not because I think I'm awesome. It was the only handle left that I could have my name in. But you can find me on Instagram. I am Mark McKinney. So horrible. You can find me there, or you can email me markeunion tv and we can go from there.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:09:43]:
Well, Mark, I have seriously loved getting to know you more. I'm grateful that you are charting a new way forward that you are showing a lot of people, hey, it doesn't have to only be this way. And I think for a lot of people who obviously resonate with this podcast, they're probably going to resonate with this model of church of, hey, this is pretty cool. And so thanks for being a trendsetter. Thanks for being willing to stumble your way through something that there is no playbook for. And. And for being willing to. To talk to me not once, but twice about it and to give me your time to do that.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:10:19]:
Hey, just. It means the world. And I'm super grateful for you.
Mark McKinney [01:10:22]:
Yeah, man. My joy, my honor, and certainly by God's grace, we're doing this.
Jeremy Jernigan [01:10:27]:
That's awesome. Well, thanks, everybody, for watching or listening. We will catch you on the next episode of Cabernet and pray.
