Episode 38
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Jeremy: [00:00:00] Well, before we dive into our content today, I want to remind you of an event we have coming up February 21st through the 23rd. This is our wine and whiskey event for the fellows out there. This is going to be a weekend in Oregon, where we're going to do whiskey tasting wine tastings, and some guided conversations about life and faith and Jesus.
And it's going to be an amazing experience designed to both encourage you and recharge you and give you a chance to pause everything else, unwind and, and think about life in some new ways. And basically an extension of a lot of what we do on the podcast and the way we get into these deeper conversations, we're going to do that for a weekend in Oregon, you can sign up, there'll be a link in the show notes.
We have two private rooms left and two shared room spots left. And so we are so excited. Chip is filling up and I am, I am beyond looking forward to this [00:01:00] first one and I've already started planning out what we're talking about and I would love to make it as full as we can. And so if. You're thinking about it, or you have a guy in your life that would love this experience. Check out community wine co.com or in the show notes.
And you can reserve your spot to join us in February. Now I want to talk about something today that is a response to a video I posted almost two years ago, I posted a three minute video, three minutes. That's it that's as long as this video was, and I was just doing this really quick thought about a famous theologian named A.W. Tozer. Now that three minute YouTube clip that I posted almost two years ago continues to get YouTube comments. Regularly.
I mean, I got it when I posted it and I continue to get comments on it to the point where I'm like, there's something here. Like this conversation is [00:02:00] striking a nerve with people. And again, the original video is only three minutes long and I just continue to see these YouTube. comments pop up in my email throughout the years, since I posted that. Evidently, what I shared in this three minute video is something that Christians disagree on. And so I thought, you know what? We need to give it a full episode of Cabernet and Pray. We need to dive into this, explore this, and I'm going to unpack many of the comments that I've received that I think illustrate why we struggle with this idea and why this idea is something worth talking about and worth figuring it out because there seems to be a lot of disagreement, even amongst Christians on this.
And so we're going to get into it today. This is episode 38: Loving Jesus too much.
Bumper: I've never shared this with anybody publicly. There's [00:03:00] so many things happening in this conversation right now. Thousand years from now, people are going to be looking at this podcast saying, so this was the breakthrough. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bales would have no idea.
Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment. Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all.
I'm in the camp that God is a universal spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've done. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second to last and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. Like you told me to drink it on the show.
I will also say as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it. This is fun. You've uncove exposed the [00:04:00] formula. You together a number of thin hanging out together and gonna sit down at table, a glass of wine and some The beauty of Jesus. Thank you for the hospitality that this particular podcast provides folks like myself.
And I know others to, to be curious around their faith practices. I really appreciate this menu, what you're doing. It is fun. And yet you dig into the deep stuff. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with drunk history, I thought it's like drunk theology.
So I, oh. I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. I keep going on these tangents because of this peach wine. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3 o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be.
Jeremy: To begin with. I want to share the wine that I'm [00:05:00] drinking today. I'm so excited. This is a Pino noir from Oregon. This is near and dear to my heart, if you know my wine pallet. Today I'm drinking a 2021 Archers Crest, Pinot Noir from a place called Archery Summit. This is one of the few wine caves in Oregon. It's really close to both of our rental homes in wine country.
And this is a place where every time I'm in Oregon, I'm finding a way to stop at Archery Summit. Just love the wines they make. Love the experience. And this one is just gorgeous. I'm getting cranberry, raspberry, clove, mushroom. Perfectly balanced. Pinot Noir is a lighter red wine so it's really easy to drink, super enjoyable.
And it's one that you can drink and it's almost refreshing, but it keeps you coming back for more. You just like, this is so good. I want more of this. And so that is what I'm drinking today. Hopefully if you are sitting down and [00:06:00] enjoying this episode, you've got something in your glass as well. And if that's true, cheers to you or cheers to you on whatever you're doing, while you join us in today's episode.
Now, if you read much from Christian writers, you will likely come across the name A.W. Tozer.
Tozer wrote a huge book in 1949. So this goes back a bit. He wrote a book called The Pursuit of God, which is now considered a classic by many people. He was a profoundly influential pastor and writer. Both in his lifetime and then since then. One of those guys that even when he died it's not like he went away.
His legacy lived on his works, lived on his writing, lived on, and he has only increased I would suggest in popularity and in influence. He had a faith that many people have tried to emulate since. And you're definitely going to get a flavor of this as I share some [00:07:00] of the comments that I have received on my original take on A.W. Tozer.
Now, before I get into that, let me share a few of the ideas that Tozer gave us. A lot of is really beautiful. He said this: Faith is the gaze of a soul upon a saving God. Just kind of poetic. I love this line, probably my favorite. What comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing. About us. Which really stresses the influence and the importance of theology of why we, we need to work on our image of God, because what comes to mind when we think about God shapes so much of what we do, and this is the point Tozer was making. He also said this justice is not something God has.
Justice is something that God is good. I like that. And then one more faith is an organ of knowledge and love and Oregon. Of experience. So, these are just a few quotes that I think [00:08:00] are really cool. And in addition to his ministry A.W. Tozer was married and he had seven kids. Which hats off to him. I have five and that seems a lot.
And so he had two more. Now after his death and just gets into what we want to talk about today after his death. His wife, ADA remarried. She married a man named Leonard Odom. And one day someone asked her, what is it like? Being remarried, you know, to someone other than a w Tozer. I mean, he was already famous at the time of his death.
And so they were trying to probably figure out like how on earth. Cause some other random guy measure up to your first husband to. A w Tozer who went by Aiden and how on earth would, would anyone else compare to him? Now her reply is stunning. And it's something that when I first read it years ago, it's one of those I just like logged it away.
Like I got to remember this quote [00:09:00] because. I would suggest this is a cautionary tale. For anyone who wants to follow Jesus. And this is just one of those statements that once I saw it, I've not. I've not stopped thinking about it. Here's what she said. She said, I have never been happier in my life. Aiden loved Jesus Christ.
That's A.W. Tozer, but Leonard Odom. Loves me. Let me read that again. I have never been happier in my life. Aiden loved Jesus Christ, but Leonard Odom loves. Me. Now consider that for a moment. At first we may not know what on earth do we do with that quote? We might want to offer him, you know, a slap on the wrist.
Oh, he loved Jesus too much. You know, shame on you. For loving Jesus that much. And notice that ADA didn't say that he was a fake. Didn't say that he had some secret moral [00:10:00] failure, you know, that he abused her. There's nothing like that. She simply acknowledged that his love for Jesus didn't translate to her the way that Leonard's did. And she evidently was much happier being married to Leonard than she was being married. To A.W. Tozer. Now, in hindsight, knowing this little nugget, you can look back on some of the things he wrote and you have a different perspective, right?
The perspective of his wife. And it makes some of his ideas a little bit sad, almost ironically sad. Like one of the things that Tozer wrote was this. An infinite God can give all of himself to each of his children. He does not distribute himself that each may have a part, but to each one, he gives all of himself as fully as if there were no others. Which is a beautiful idea about God that, that God can, can [00:11:00] freely distribute who God is to each and every person.
It's not like I get more of a portion of God, then you get, and, and no one does, right. That God is freely available to each of us. But the irony of that is that Tozer evidently did not fully give himself to his own wife. And she felt that, and she noticed that. Now I personally. I don't know how else to conclude this quote other than to say, this is a tragically sad reality. This is something I would never want my wife to say about me after I passed.
If I loved Jesus, but it didn't translate to her, I would not view that as a job well done. I would suggest something was wrong that I missed it somewhere. I made this argument a few years back in a three minute video, just simply saying, Hey. Keep in mind as we love Jesus that we also have to love people.
They [00:12:00] cannot be separated or else it leads to this. It leads to people trying to make sense of how can someone love God in this way. And yet they didn't feel love from them. And the comments I've received. Are all over the place and, and very interesting. Some of them are just a bit random. For example, someone said, you sound like you voted for Biden.
Not sure how they concluded that or what I said led to that.
But I replied to this commenter and I said, it sounds like you don't associate Trump with a healthy marriage. I didn't get a response to that one, but just, just an observation based on what they brought up. One of the things I realized is that a lot of people who have commented on that original video, I posted. Seem to want to blame ADA for this.
They want to blame his wife. And so as she's reflecting on the way that she felt love from Aiden and then from Leonard, [00:13:00] they seem to want to focus this on her, rather than anything that Tozer did. And I want to read a few of these quotes because this is what people are sharing, that the illustrates us. One person said this. It's impossible to know the dynamics of anyone's relationship based off one quote. But it leads me to the question.
In what way did the wife loved Jesus? Can it be that any perceived deficit in the love sheet experience from AWS Tozer stemmed from a deficiency in her own love. For the Lord. Right. The reason she felt less loved from Tozer is because she didn't love God enough. Herself is what this commenter suggests. Another person said, I believe it was indiscreet for her to publicly say this.
How dare she answered the question? He may have felt the same. But he would never say that. Like, he probably [00:14:00] didn't love her or feel loved from her, but he just kept that to himself. Right. She just happened to be nasty enough. To say it. Someone said you presuppose that his wife is telling the truth. Maybe she was off.
Sure. She was asked a question and she answered it based on her experience, but maybe she was off. Another person said if her testimony. Is that he loved Jesus. I believe she's bothered because she doesn't love Jesus as much as he does. So simple case of jealousy, right? She saw the way the Aiden loved Jesus. She didn't felt that same love, therefore she's jealous.
She has to conclude what she concluded. Or one more. One person said anyone who is jealous of their spouse, loving the Lord more speaks volumes. And displays their love for themselves above. The Lord. Right. So for her to conclude this, [00:15:00] clearly she doesn't love Jesus. She knows all about herself. And that is why she felt that. Now I'm just going to make the argument.
I believe all of this is straight up. Victim shaming. And I don't put much weight in any of it. When, when someone tells you their experience of pain or trauma or hurt, and your initial reaction is to blame that person. You've got something wrong in the way that you're processing pain. And truthfully, this is why many churches don't feel safe to.
A lot of people is because when we share incidences of pain, when it turns back on us originally, or immediately, it's like, well, yeah, well, that's the reason why you experience this because you did something and it's not a position that offers much healing for people. When they're dealing with pain, they're dealing with hurt. And so while a lot of people who reacted to my initial video want to, just to put all the blame on ADA. I'm not going to do that.
And hopefully if you're a regular on this podcast, that's not [00:16:00] a surprise to you. That I'm, that I'm gonna take this approach, but I'm not gonna say it's Aida's fault. That she felt more love from Leonard than she did from her first husband. Now a few people had another theme going for them in their comments.
And that was to reference a verse in Luke chapter 14, verse 26. And they either referenced part of this verse or, or in some cases quoted the whole verse at me. But this came up a number of times. And so here's the original passage that they're quoting Luke 14, 26. If you want to be my disciple, Jesus says you must by comparison.
Hate everyone else. Your father and mother wife and children, brothers and sisters. Yes. Even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. So you'd be bold in a variety of ways or saying, oh, here's the slam dunk verse to defend what Tozer did. If ADA was telling the truth one person said and. Gosh, these are wild to me, but maybe you can relate with these [00:17:00] or maybe, I don't know.
This is, I just find this well. Someone said I just had to confess the other day. I think last Saturday. And seek forgiveness. For loving my wife more than loving the Lord. Okay. This guy had to ask his wife for forgiveness for loving her too much. And then he quotes Luke 14, 26. It says only when you love the Lord properly.
Can you truly love your wife and children properly. Now friends, I confess to you... I just find this to be such a wild statement. This man had to seek forgiveness. From his wife. For loving her more than loving the Lord. I would love to know. Practically, what did he do? That he felt like was the trigger for that realization.
Like I did this. I mean that, that just seems like a wild marriage to me, but [00:18:00] that was his experience. Someone else said. Are you right? Yes. And no. Are you to be unloving to your wife? No. However, if you loving the Lord so much makes her wife feel like you're loving her less. So be it. Hearing this. I admire Tozer even more.
May it be said of me in a similar fashion, he loved the Lord.
So his wife says that she didn't feel loved. From, you know, Aiden, the way her second husband did. And she wasn't as happy. And this man says I like Tozer even more after that. And I want that said about me, which again, I would just suggest as a very different type of marriage. The seems to be obviously patriarchy. Not, not something that I'm into or do I think reflects the heart of God. Another person said. Pagans are remembered as loving their [00:19:00] family as if it were all they had, the disciples were remembered for loving their Lord. Okay.
So notice this dichotomy here that you, you have to choose one, right? And, and so pagans, they love their family. That's what they're known for. But disciples, they're known for loving the Lord, which obviously if you're a critically thinking person, presents some holes in this argument. So I engage with this one commenter a little bit. I said, oh, okay.
Have you chosen celibacy for your life? Because otherwise you'd clearly be in the pagan category. If you're loving your family, you should just be loving the Lord. To which this person said. Tozer was not celibate God brought the right one for him. Yeah, I'm aware Tozer wasn't celibate because I shared a quote from his wife.
But also notice that did not remotely answer my question to this guy saying, okay, well, if you have to be a pagan or disciple based on whether or not you love your family or love the Lord. You know, are, are you clearly celibate [00:20:00] then in your pursuit of God, he dismissed that, but God brought the right one for Tozer was his argument. So I wrote back. Funny that Tozers right one didn't consider herself that. Right. Like, she wouldn't have said that was, you know, the dream ideal marriage. She seemed much happier being married to Leonard after Aiden had died. So all of this leads us to the question that I have. I have titled this podcast around.
Can you love Jesus too much? Is this something that we need to be aware of? Is this possible is this what was going on with Tozer? He just loved Jesus too much or is there something else? Now, somewhat related, but a little bit off topic. This reminds me of how many times I was often instructed as a lead pastor to just preach Jesus. Hey, pastor, just preach Jesus.
That's all we want you to just preach Jesus. This was always said to me, Whenever I started [00:21:00] talking about specific groups of people who were marginalized or vulnerable and talking about us being the church to these groups of people. And that's when I would get this pushback. Hey, whoa. Just preach Jesus. It seemed to me then, and it has only been confirmed since that many Christians want Jesus to stay put in the gospels, Hey, stay there where we can control you, where we can, you know, keep you where we want you.
And don't get involved in too much of what we've got going on in the day-to-day world. But here's one of the things that I believe to my core. We cannot see Jesus without seeing Jesus in the people. Around us. You cannot say, I'm just going to read the gospels and I'm going to find Jesus in the text. And not see Jesus in the faces of people that you and I interact with each and every day. See I think what has happened is we have [00:22:00] carried A.W. Tozers delusion with us today. This idea that we can follow God and somehow that can be separate from how we love people around us. Now a lot of people show this delusion, I would suggest, in some of the other comments that I received. Someone said this, I wished my husband had loved the Lord more than he loved me. I think I would have felt more loved. Obviously there's a wife saying she, she wishes that she could say what ADA says, but but not because she's moved on, but like wishes that was her experience with her husband. To which I would say, what are you measuring this by? Like, how would you know if your husband loved the Lord more than you? What are the tangible signs that you would conclude this with? Do you want it to be more obvious? More blatant that you are second fiddle to Jesus.
Do you want to feel lesser than. [00:23:00] And in a regular occurrence, is that something that you're craving in order to feel like Jesus was above you? Or someone said: Who's to say that he didn't love his wife. Anyone who puts Jesus first is going to have a greater love for their spouse and others then they would have otherwise. Which is an example of just making an argument out of sheer ignorance and, and believing it because you think you're entitled to an argument. Who's to say he didn't love his wife. Let's see his wife is who is going to say. The person who I would suggest knew him best?
She's the one who made this observation and she did not feel a greater love from him. Compared to her second marriage. Even with his great love for Jesus. So even though this guy is saying, no, that's not the way it works. Her experience was the literally the opposite of what this guy. Is arguing. Or one person said, I will [00:24:00] always love God above all.
And there is no compromise. Which again, maybe that looks good to say or sounds good to say, but just so we're clear above all in this context means other people. It is basically a permission slip to treat other people. However we deem appropriate. In the name of loving God. More. Right because I'm so focused on loving God that I can love you.
However I deem appropriate. And if you have issue with it, even if you're my spouse well tough because I'm just loving Jesus. It becomes this very strange argument that evidently a lot of Christians really enjoy.
So what about Luke 14, 26. Well, let's read it again. If you want to be my disciple. You must by comparison. Hate everyone [00:25:00] else. Your father and mother, your wife and children, brothers and sisters. Yes. Even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. Now, let me state. What I hope is obvious here.
That probably is not as obvious as I think. Jesus is using hyperbole here he is. Using a figure of speech that relies on exaggeration to make a point. Okay. He's saying something dramatically that people go, oh, okay. He's overstating that on purpose. Just to make a point now, a more literal translation.
We're going okay. What's the actual thing Jesus saying here would be. To love less, right? So not, Hey, just not teaching people to hate that would go against so much of what Jesus taught and modeled and live, but he is saying, Hey, you need to love less in this context. Now it implies that if you had a choice to make that, if you had to either choose to follow Jesus or choose to be with your family, that you would choose to follow Jesus. And [00:26:00] I have met people who have had to make this choice, many of them throughout the world, where, because of their culture, if they became a Jesus follower, their family would disown them. And so it wasn't like they were choosing to hate their family, but they chose to follow Jesus.
And then their family said you have no place here. And some of them lost their spouses, lost relationship with their kids. Because of that, that is the context in which Jesus is saying, Hey, if you have to decide you, you choose to follow Jesus. But let's go back and read Aida's quote and figure out, is this the context in which she's saying this?
She said, I have never been happier in my life. Aiden loved Jesus Christ, but Leonard Odom loves me. So the question you and I should ask. Was she asking Aiden to choose her instead of God, because that's the context of Luke 14. That if she made this demand of him and said, Hey, buddy, Unless you, you know, are [00:27:00] willing to disown your faith in Jesus and just be with me.
We're done. Then that would be the only time that Luke 14 would apply to what we see in their marriage. And there's no indication that that was remotely the case. She was very involved in. AWS Tozers ministry. In fact, she met Leonard Odom, her second husband. Through that ministry, that he was a part of Tozers church.
And in that community, that is how she met him. And I read the quote that Leonard loved Jesus and he showed love to her. Any way that Tozer didn't, even though Tozer and Leonard, both loved Jesus. Now again on the outside, we would say, well, Tozer loved Jesus more because look at this great man of God. But if one of them is loving his wife more than you begin to ask, well, what does it mean to love God?
How do we love God? If we're not loving the people. [00:28:00] Around us. And so if we want to love Jesus first. How should we love. Our spouse and everyone else. For that matter. Did Jesus say anything else that might help us make sense? Of this, this seeming tension. Well, yeah, there's a number of examples we could go to in Matthew 22, verse 36.
We find a great example of this. Teacher. Which is the most important commandment in the law of Moses. Jesus replied, you must love the Lord, your God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. To which everybody in the comment section of my original posts would be like, hallelujah, praise the Lord.
This is what we're talking about. But you keep reading. Verse 39 a second. Is equally. Important. Who said it's equally important to, did I [00:29:00] say no? That's Jesus saying that this second thing he's about to add on is equally important to the first, which is love your neighbor. As yourself. And then he makes us comment the entire law and all of the demands of the prophets are based on these. Two. Commandments. Not just the first. These two. So Jesus connects loving God and loving others together in a way that we cannot feel free to separate the way we want to, or the way many of these comments on this post would indicate that yeah.
As long as you love Jesus, No one can say anything else about you. Jesus puts it together. That the way you love God is equally important to the way you love. Others. We cannot see Jesus. Without seeing Jesus in the people. [00:30:00] Around us. Otherwise. We extract Jesus from the very people who offer us. His face. And we instead create a theoretical version. Of Jesus that we can control and we can experience on our terms. And we can go visit Jesus in the gospels when we're ready for a dose of him.
And then disconnect that when we get back to real life and to the people around us, that we choose not to see Jesus. And if we want to view it like that, and this is literally exactly what Jesus told us not to do. And the way that we follow him. Another passage I think is helpful. Here is Matthew 25.
Jesus says this. When you did something, this is something loving. To one of the least of these, my brothers and sisters, you were doing it. To me. Literally when you do anything kind, anything loving to anyone Jesus includes [00:31:00] the least of whoever we would consider. You are doing that to Jesus. And then conversely, he says, and when you refuse to help the least of these, my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help. Me. Jesus is merging these two together, loving people, no matter who they are. Is the same as loving Jesus.
This would especially include your spouse. So to paraphrase a little bit for our purposes here, Jesus may be saying, when you did not adequately love your wife, you were doing that to me. And this really gets to the heart of this conversation. You cannot separate your love of Jesus in the way that you love your spouse.
Jesus is always found in the people around you. This would include your spouse, your kids, your friends, your coworkers, your [00:32:00] neighbors. The people looking to immigrate to our country illegally and legally. The people who voted opposite to you and even someone you may consider an enemy. Those are the people who will show you the face of Jesus.
And in particular, if your eyes are fixed on Jesus, your view will be disproportionately focused on the hurting and the oppressed people around you. If you see Jesus, you will see them. And if your heart is shaped, like Jesus, their pain will become your pain. You cannot stare at him. And not see them. So can you love Jesus too much? I don't think so, but you can fail to love Jesus in your pursuit of Christianity. And we can delude ourselves in the process. So [00:33:00] this is your reminder to love Jesus well, today in the people around you. We'll see you on the next episode of Cabernet and Pray.
