Episode 39
===
Jeremy: [00:00:00] When I was a lead pastor, I once had someone in our church wanting to meet with me, and when I met with that person, they told me they were really concerned about the way that I read the Old Testament, in particular, the way I made sense of the Old Testament in light of Jesus. When I asked them to explain a little more because I was a little confused by this, they told me that they just loved the old testament.
That was their favorite thing. They just love reading the old testament and they just didn't feel like I was honoring it enough and making enough room for it in the way that I Studied it in the way that I read it in light of jesus And I remember being a little taken aback by this because I couldn't understand why if you've seen Jesus you would go back to a lot of the really bizarre stuff in the Old Testament and somehow hold that equal to what we find in the New Testament as they made sense of Jesus and I in particular asked them a few things about things in the Old [00:01:00] Testament and you know What about this and this and this and They had a confused look on their face like well, where where is that?
And I just remember thinking in the ways in which you've read the old testament you have glossed over Some really horrific stuff that hasn't bothered you the way it should bother you and hasn't required you to make sense out of it. And so today I'm going to show you what I consider a brutal chapter of the Old Testament.
Just a chapter that is so incredibly difficult to make sense of. And it illustrates how we have to figure out as Christians, how do we read? passages like this. How do we make sense of passages like this? And it's one thing to talk about it in the abstract. It's another thing when you actually get down to some of the horrific things that are there.
So welcome to episode 39, the worst chapter in the [00:02:00] Bible.
Bumper: I've never shared this with anybody publicly. There's so many things happening in this conversation right now. Thousand years from now, people are going to be looking at this podcast saying, so this was the breakthrough. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bales would have no idea.
Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment. Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all.
I'm in the camp that God is a universal spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've done. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second to last and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. Like you told me to drink it on the show.
I will also say as a confession, I am a [00:03:00] lightweight. So I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it. This is fun. You've uncove exposed the formula. You together a number of thin hanging out together and gonna sit down at table, a glass of wine and some The beauty of Jesus. Thank you for the hospitality that this particular podcast provides folks like myself.
And I know others to, to be curious around their faith practices. I really appreciate this menu, what you're doing. It is fun. And yet you dig into the deep stuff. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with drunk history, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh.
I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. I keep going on these tangents because of this peach wine. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3 o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my [00:04:00] communication than I normally would be. I know why you had your guest drink wine. Makes sense now.
Yeah. I get it. I get it. I get it. I I was thinking I'm like, I'm like, now I'm Riverbansky in this episode. Yeah, no, I understand. I understand really unleash the beast.
Jeremy: Today I want to begin with what I'm drinking. I've got a bottle of Sokol Blosser, which is one of the oldest wineries in Oregon. This is a 2021 watershed block, Pinot Noir, just incredible. And I love Pinot Noir and I drink it often. And if you've listened to many episodes, you're like, yep, he's, he's back to the Pinot.
Sokol Blosser has such a finesse. And the way that they make their wines and such a beauty to on this one, I'm getting a lot of earthiness on the nose. So I would say like potting soil and dried leaves, which is, is the thing that kind of hits you first. And then as you taste it on your palate, you get some of the fruit [00:05:00] notes.
So then I get the cranberry, the raspberry, and I get some clove. On the palate as well. Just a beautiful mix. The way that they do it, you feel like you get a little bit of the earth, the grapes, all of it perfectly balanced together in an amazing pinot noir. That is what I'm drinking today, and if you are enjoying this at home or wherever you're interacting with this podcast, hopefully you're able to enjoy your own glass of wine as well, and so cheers to you on another episode.
Well, let's get into what I consider the worst chapter in the Bible. Now this is obviously not an objective statement. This is my opinion of what I find to be the worst chapter in the Bible. Other people may give you other ones, but I'm going to argue it's numbers 31. So if you want to pause it now and you want to get out your Bible, you want to go to numbers 31.
I'm going to argue it's numbers 31. That would be great and I actually would [00:06:00] encourage you if you want to read through the chapter on your own before I dive into it, it'll give you a frame of reference for what I'm going to talk about. I'm going to hit some of the highlights here, but if you want to read it for yourself, have your own reactions to it as you read this chapter and then maybe hit play and we'll get back into why this chapter is so bothersome and then ultimately what do we do about it?
Now, number numbers 31 is a tough look for anyone who uses a surface level reading of the Bible. By that I mean people who literally just take everything at face value. They do not look deeper. They do not figure out, okay, what does this actually mean? They do not try to reconcile it with the person of Jesus.
Who god is later revealed to be like and they just read it as it is and and I Meet people all the time. I just read the bible for what it says and if that's you numbers [00:07:00] 31 presents quite a few challenges now to begin with God instructs moses. So moses is the leader of the israelites at this time God instructs moses to fight a war of revenge Okay, so just to get you a flavor of what we're talking about here numbers 31 verses 1 and 2 say this Then the Lord said to Moses on behalf of the people of Israel take revenge on the Midianites for leading them into Idolatry, so already we have a God who is Hell bent on revenge.
That is the purpose of this. And God is instructing God's people to go and take revenge as well. And this reminds me of hearing that George Lucas originally wanted to name the third of his Star Wars movies, Revenge of the Jedi. But he realized at some point that Jedis wouldn't seek revenge. And so that movie became Return of the Jedi and then [00:08:00] later he made a movie called revenge of the Sith because this was something that Sith would do So apparently Jedis are above seeking revenge, but according to a literal reading of numbers 31 God isn't above revenge Which I don't know if that makes God a Sith Lord in the Old Testament or how we make sense of that if you're into Star Wars, but we'll leave that aside for now Now what we need to understand is this revenge battle in numbers 31 is a huge success.
I mean this goes exactly according to plan. All the things that you would want to happen happen in numbers 31 versus 48 and 49 tell us this. Then all the generals and captains came to Moses and said, we, your servants have accounted for all the men. who went out to battle under our command. Not one of us is missing.
Now this is incredible. Israel evidently doesn't lose a [00:09:00] single soldier in the fight. And you go, wow, what an amazing victory. I mean, Moses has got to be so thrilled that their revenge went so well. Which is why it's understandable to be a little bit confused when you learn that Moses isn't thrilled when the army returns, he's pissed and you're going what?
Oh yeah, he is fuming and you go, well, what's, what's going on here in verse 14. We learned Moses was furious with all the generals and captains who had returned from the battle. Now again, this is just one of those moments in this chapter going, okay, this doesn't make any sense. What's going on here? They fight this revenge battle.
It's weird already, but they have an incredible success. They don't lose any soldiers. And then when they get back, Moses is furious. Why is he so mad? What on earth could possibly make this man of [00:10:00] God this mad? Well, the very next verse tells us verse 15. Why have you let all the women live? He demanded
buckle up friends. Why is Moses man? Well, our man of God is mad after the immense success of this revenge war because they didn't kill enough women. Now friends, you're going, what, what do we do with this? Well, it gets worse. This is why this chapter is just so much to process. So then Moses decides, all right, we got to remedy this problem because you have allowed too many of these women to live.
What are we going to do about it? So Moses gives an instruction versus 17 and 18. Moses says this, kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. [00:11:00] Only the young girls who are virgins may live. You may keep them for yourselves. Now, I want you just to imagine God's people carrying out this order from God's leader, Moses.
You need to go kill the boys, kill any woman who's had sex with a man and all the virgins you get to keep for yourself. So imagine them going out and carrying out this order, killing women, killing the boys, and then forcibly taking these virgins for themselves. So the message that Moses gives God's people is that these, these conquered little girls who had just had their parents, brothers, and older sisters murdered.
are theirs to enjoy however they want as plunders of war. Now here's where this gets really bizarre. It divvies them up where all these girls are going to go. We find out that half of the girls go to the [00:12:00] soldiers. The other half go to the people at large. And then as we learn in verse 35, this adds up to 32, 000 girls.
32, 000 of them in just this one section. Now, even more bizarrely, God gets people for himself. Verse 28, we learn from the army's portion. First, give the Lord his share of the plunder. One of every 500 of the prisoners. Okay. That's numbers 31, 28. Then verse 40 tells us and 16, 000 virgin girls of whom 32 were the Lord's share.
32 virgins went to God. Now again, I don't know how you picture God, but do you picture a God who needs to receive 32 virgins after this battle takes place? Now, [00:13:00] have I made you uncomfortable yet? Let's just go ahead and close in prayer, right? This is why when people tell me, I just read the Bible for what it says.
No, you don't. Or if you do, you're not reading it carefully. You're not trying hard enough. This chapter is brutal to imagine when we follow Jesus. How on earth do we make sense of this? Now, when I was a lead pastor, there was another person that I met with that was also bothered by the way I read the Old Testament.
You're noticing this was a theme that definitely came up from time to time. And this person, was really bothered by the way that I would use the Old Testament and then make it make sense , in light of Jesus. It felt like I was just glossing over too much. in the old Testament. And, and I remember I tried something with this person.
I said, okay, let me, let me try this. And I talked about numbers 31 [00:14:00] and I said, okay, let's look at what's in this passage. You know, he gives these boys being killed, women being killed, these virgins, you know, being divvied up to the soldiers and the people and to God. And then I just asked a question that I thought would give us some common ground.
As I said did this look like something that was consistent with Jesus? And I'll never forget this guy looked me right in the eyes and said, yeah. And I went, huh? He's like, yeah, that could be consistent with Jesus. And what I thought was going to be common ground, like, Hey, we can we can both agree that this looks nothing like Jesus.
We couldn't even agree on that. And I just remember that moment. So vividly going, Oh, this is going to be a challenge because you have some version of Jesus in your mind. That is literally capable of doing anything. Like, can you imagine 32 virgins going to Jesus? I mean, to me, that just sounds like such a ludicrous [00:15:00] idea, but I have found that there are other Christians out there that have no problem with this.
Now, you might assume this, but our meeting didn't end well. That member ended up going to the elder board to tell them how bothered and concerned he was about my theology because he just couldn't reconcile that I was saying, no, that doesn't look like Jesus. See, what I would say is you should be horrified by numbers 31 if you follow Jesus.
And you go, well, why should I be horrified? Because Jesus looks nothing like that. Now I'm just going to say that Jesus looks nothing like that. And I think the mental gymnastics you have to do in order to conclude otherwise is far beyond my skill. Like I, I don't have that much imagination to somehow reconcile numbers 31 and make it make sense with Jesus.
And so if you feel totally confused right now, I would say that's a good thing. [00:16:00] That's really a good thing. We can work with that and help you to figure out. The problem is most Christians just ignore passages like this. Like the other individual I began the episode with, and he just was unaware, even though he said he loved the old Testament, it was just like unaware that there are passages like numbers 31, but you know, who's not unaware of passages like numbers 31 atheists.
That's who's very aware of it. Atheists who choose not to follow God because God looks like a monster. They're the ones who are very aware of what's in the Old Testament. And I'll be honest with you, and you might think less of me after this, but if I had to follow a God that looked like the God depicted in Numbers 31, I wouldn't follow that God either.
I would say, you know what? This looks no different than the worst of what humanity is capable of. I want something else. I'm not going to [00:17:00] follow a God like that. So how are followers of Jesus supposed to read one of the worst chapters
in the Bible? Well, there was an early church father named Origen. And perhaps you've heard of his name before he taught that when we come upon a biblical passage that seems unworthy of God, we must ask the spirit to help us find the deeper meaning in that passage that is worthy of God. Okay. So origin was one of the early church fathers that acknowledged There are some awful things in the Bible that do not seem worthy of God.
So we then have to use the spirit to find some other meaning that is worthy of God. Origin said this, the scriptures were written by the spirit of God and have a meaning not such only as is apparent at first sight, but also another which escapes the [00:18:00] notice of most. Or just basically saying there are passages where the initial reading you might conclude is not the right reading.
Okay. And this is again, this is one of the early church fathers. This is not a new idea. This is hundreds of years ago that early Christians were realizing, yeah, we've got some problematic passages that do not seem worthy of God. Therefore, we need to use the spirit to find out a deeper meaning. Now, you don't need to be afraid of passages like Numbers 31 if you're a Christian, because I believe there is more going on here that we can make sense out of these kind of passages.
Now, if God looks like Jesus, which if you've heard any episode of Cabernet and Praise so far, you should know that's, that's a running theme here. If God looks like Jesus, there has to be something else going on in Numbers 31 and in a lot of the Old Testament for that matter as well. I would suggest this is God [00:19:00] stooping down to meet God's people where they are.
And this is a huge concept. Now I first really developed this idea in one of my mentors had a couple of books and there's a popular version of his book called cross vision. He also had an academic version called the crucifixion of the warrior God, which I think is a cooler title, but that sucker was thousands of pages and took me months to get through.
So you're probably not interested in that version, but then he wrote a popular version called cross vision. Basically the same idea just condensed down quite a bit where he explains this idea and here's what he says. In his love, God was willing to allow his people to think of him along the lines of an ancient Near East warrior deity to the degree this was necessary in order to progressively influence them to the point where they eventually would be capable of receiving the truth that he is actually radically [00:20:00] unlike these violent ancient Near East deities.
Now that's Greg Boyd in cross vision explaining that God met the Israelites where they were in numbers 31. And that's the best that they could understand about God. And so God allowed them to think this about them because God was trying to get God's people to see that. No, I'm actually not like that.
I'm like Jesus. But at that point in the story, they could not see that quite yet. So God allows them to think that God is like that and God takes their sin on in the process Just like we see Jesus do for us as well Henry Rousseau said it like this God created man in his own image and man being a gentleman returned the favor.
I would suggest that Numbers 31 and passages like this reveal far more about the ancient Israelites than the then they do about who God really is. [00:21:00] Because we have seen God revealed in Jesus and it does not look like numbers 31. Therefore we can acknowledge, Hey, at that point in history, that was the closest they could come.
And from our vantage point, we can see, yeah, that doesn't look like Jesus at all. Now, Greg goes on to explain in his book, he says, while I continue to affirm that the whole Bible is inspired by God, I'm now persuaded that the Bible itself instructs us to base our mental representation of God solely on Jesus Christ.
So as we read the Bible, as we understand what's the purpose of the Bible, it is to bring it to our sole representation of who God is to be. The person of Jesus, not a collection of all the depictions of God we find throughout the entire scriptures, but to see this as a development leading us to the end point being the revelation of Jesus.
Greg offers a great [00:22:00] illustration of how to think of this. He says, Jesus is what God looks like when there are no clouds in the way. I love the simplicity of that statement. Jesus is what God looks like when you get a clear shot, when your eyes can see, when there's nothing else block, you go, Oh, suddenly I have this great, you know, this great angle to see God.
It looks like Jesus. And then he goes on to explain to say that a passage is divinely inspired is not to say that it necessarily reflects an unclouded vision of God. So numbers 31 is teaching us something about God, but what we've got to acknowledge is there are a lot of clouds in the way we are not seeing Jesus clearly in this passage.
We're seeing something about God that is being revealed of how God is willing to interact with God's people, especially historically. But this is not an unclouded version of who God [00:23:00] really is. I had a chance to actually write up a little promo for Greg's cross vision book and I came up with a, an analogy that I thought was a helpful way of, of explaining what the book does when you have this idea in mind.
Here's what I wrote. What if the harshest aspects of God in the old Testament actually help us see the most beautiful aspects of Jesus on the cross? Sound like wishful thinking? Reading this is like staring at a two way mirror and suddenly being able to see what's happening on the other side. This book will show you how to read the Bible with fresh eyes and cause you to never see God the same way again.
Easily one of the best and most transformative books I've ever read. Now, this two way mirror is the image that I got after reading that book of, of this is what's going on. That when you have the one sided, you know, mirror, you're just seeing your reflection. And I would suggest that if you read [00:24:00] numbers 31 on a literal level, you're just seeing the reflection of the people that this is who they were.
This is what the culture was. This is what the world did at that time. And that's what's coming through. But when you start with the premise. that God looks like Jesus and there's some clouds in the way and we got to do some work through the Holy Spirit. It's like turning the light on on the other side of the mirror and now I can still see the reflection of the people, but I can see beyond it and I can realize there's a whole nother room back there and I can see further than I could see before.
And sadly many Christians never turn that light on. On the two way mirror, they just read numbers 31 and passages like it and go, God must be also like this, which is how you get things like the crusades and the inquisition and all sorts of horrific things that Christians have done throughout the centuries.
Because if we add up a little bit of this and a little bit of this and a little bit of this and we put it all together, then [00:25:00] God can look like anything. And that is a problem with much of Christian theology today. But what we should say is God looks like Jesus and then work our way backwards and try to figure it out that way.
Now, another book, if you're interested in this topic, so cross vision being the first one, another book that I would recommend to you that I think is super helpful is a book by Andy Stanley called irresistible. Now, this is another book that helps us make sense of the entire covenant of the Old Testament as it pertains to us today as Christians.
Here's one of the things that Andy says in this book that I just love this quote. He says, Jesus, the apostle Paul, the author of Hebrews and the Jerusalem council have given us permission to unhitch our faith from God's covenant with Israel. Amen. Amen. Okay, so all these different things give us reason to say we don't have to be in the same covenant as we find in the Old Testament.
Actually, he [00:26:00] goes on, they didn't just give us permission, they highly recommended it. They all knew what we will never know until we choose to let it go. Mix and match, and you don't get the best of either, you get the worst of both. You get the prosperity gospel, the Crusades, antisemitism, legalism, exclusivism, judgmentalism, 14th century Catholicism, don't touch God's anointed ism, God will get them ism and other isms.
He's saying, if you start just dipping into the old Testament, mixing that in with your Christian today, got a little bit of new covenant, a little bit old covenant, just put it all together. you get some of the worst expressions of what the church can be. And we see this throughout history because if you take all of that, then God looks like nothing in particular and God can be anything.
But if we acknowledge no passages like numbers 31 are revealing [00:27:00] the people of God more than who God is, then we can go, that's not what God is into. That is not what we are called to do today. I would suggest some of the worst versions of Christianity. Try to incorporate passages like numbers 31 try to just at face value, bring it in, make room for it, make justifications for it.
If you are in an environment where those are the arguments, have your guard up because that is setting you up to have basically any expression of your faith that would be valid if you're willing to mix everything in. Andy Stanley goes on in the book. He says, In addition to unhitching the church from the law of Moses, their decision unhitched the church from everything associated with the law of Moses.
Talking about the early church. He says, So the early church chose the first day of the week rather than the Sabbath as their [00:28:00] holy day. They rebranded Passover. They abandoned animal sacrifice. They ditched circumcision, they dispensed with the priesthood they served and prayed for rather than persecuting their enemies.
And he's talking about the way that the church departed from the culture of the Old Testament. So if we read it today and we overlook all those changes and we go back and we incorporate 'em, we're not only doing something that makes no logical sense, but we're going against the examples. Of what the early church did, how they interacted with the culture and the texts that they had inherited.
All of this leads us to this conclusion. We should read the entire Bible to better see Jesus. That is how every single text should be read. And it's doubly important when you're in the old Testament to keep this in mind, that all of this should be read to better see [00:29:00] Jesus. And then we can acknowledge that when there appears to be clouds in the way, when you get to a, a chapter like number 31 and you go, huh, this one is, this one's confusing and complicated and doesn't look like Jesus.
Then we acknowledge it likely reflects God's people more than God. And there are clouds in the way and we need to use the spirit to help us find a different way of understanding it, that God is meeting God's people there, not because that's what God is like, but because God will take on their sin onto who God is in order to bring them along to something better.
So I'll close with something that Greg Boyd says. He says, there is no aspect of God that is not characterized by the nonviolent self sacrificial enemy embracing love that is On the cross, we don't have to be [00:30:00] afraid of chapters like numbers 31, but we can also refer to them as horrific examples of things that God is not actually like, hopefully that gives you a framework that gives you a way to read passages in the Old Testament and ultimately have a more Jesus looking God when you interact with God.
We'll see you on the next episode of Cabernet and Pray.
