Episode 40
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jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: [00:00:00] My friends. Today's episode is a wild ride. I am so excited for this. This is someone I have been trying to get on the schedule for a while now. We had a number of calendar conflicts, but we made it work and he was even late to the episode and we're going to get into that. It's, it's so enjoyable.
But today is an interview with Tim Whitaker of the New Evangelicals. If you have heard me talk about them before, that's not a coincidence. This is an organization I think is incredible. The work they're doing is incredible. They have a podcast that Tim hosts where they are, I mean, regularly just cranking out content and it is so good and it's so relevant and I could not recommend them enough to give them a follow wherever you are at online.
A few things that, describe what the work is that they do. If, if you're like, Hey, who are they? There's some phrases on their site that I thought really describe them. One of them is we exist for the church that has left the building. [00:01:00] I love that because so many of you, if you're dialed into this podcast, probably can relate to that in some way or another.
And that's a group that they have just gone after and said, Hey, we're going to be there for them. They say, we're here to reclaim a loving evangelical tradition that informs a better way forward. Basically, how do we take all that we have, all that we were given, and figure out a healthier version of it moving forward.
Then one of the lines I love, they say, faith isn't easy, hurt makes it harder. And I know a lot of you are dealing with your own hurt from church or from life or from ministry or a pastor or whatever that looked like for you. And faith gets really tricky to navigate when you're also trying to process through the hurt.
And so we need safe spaces and hopefully this podcast is one of those for you. But the work that the new evangelicals are doing is another great resource for that. And Tim is an incredible guy. And really [00:02:00] enjoyed the wine that he had on this episode. So you get to enjoy that. This is episode 40, the new evangelicals.
Bumper: I've never shared this with anybody publicly. There's so many things happening in this conversation right now. Thousand years from now, people are going to be looking at this podcast saying, so this was the breakthrough. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bales would have no idea.
Stephen A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? Gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment. Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all.
I'm in the camp that God is a universal spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've done. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second to last [00:03:00] and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. Like you told me to drink it on the show.
I will also say as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it. This is fun. You've uncove exposed the formula. You together a number of thin hanging out together and gonna sit down at table, a glass of wine and some The beauty of Jesus. Thank you for the hospitality that this particular podcast provides folks like myself.
And I know others to, to be curious around their faith practices. I really appreciate this menu, what you're doing. It is fun. And yet you dig into the deep stuff. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with drunk history, I thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh.
I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. [00:04:00] I keep going on these tangents because of this peach wine. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3 o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you had your guest drink wine. Makes sense now.
Yeah. I get it. I get it. I get it. I was thinking like, I'm like, man, I'm River Rantee in this episode. Yeah, no, I understand. I understand. Really unleash the beast.
Jeremy: Welcome to the podcast, Tim.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Thank you for having me
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: This is, this is going to be so exciting. I have been planning this for months, so I'm excited to have Tim on board. Before we get into our conversation, we're going to talk about what we're drinking and this is fun because Tim, Tim's going out on a ledge for us today. So I'm excited to see what he's got.
I'll start with what I'm doing. I have got a bottle of Story of Soil. This is a Syrah, 2022 Story of Soil is from Los Olivos, [00:05:00] California, Syrah is a full bodied wine. doesn't have all the tannins that you'd expect from something as big as it is.
So, when you see this in the glass, you're thinking this thing's huge, but even though it's full body has a lot of fruit flavors to it, not as deep on the tannins. And this one's great. I'm getting red plum, blueberry, vanilla bean, really set in the mood. I'm vibing with it. So that's what I've got in my glass.
Tim, what are you, what are you drinking today?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Well, I need to, I need to confess though. Before I introduce what I bought.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: We're
already beginning with a mea
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: am I allowed to, am I allowed to swear on your show?
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: You can swear. Yeah.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I'm a shitty guest. Okay. Cause you said earlier, I've been waiting months for this and I called you yesterday.
And was like, hey bro, I got your email about wine and stuff. I'm not a big wine drinker So I kind of confirmed some stuff and then today I get a text from you [00:06:00] at 115 my time which And it's like, Hey man, do you need the link? And I'm like, Oh shit. And I wasn't even home. I was at Starbucks writing a script for something with no wine in hand.
So I'm like, Oh my God, I talked to this bro 24 hours ago and I still forgot. So what I did, like any good. Undiagnosed ADHD person is I packed up my shit. I got in my Honda civic. That's all beat up. I drove to the liquor store. Now in New Jersey, you can't just go to like your normal grocery store. You have to go to an actual liquor store.
And I literally dude, it was like supermarket sweep. I just freaking grabbed any random ass bottle of wine. Didn't even check it paid for with Apple pay and then sped home to get here.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: So a lot of thought has gone into this bottle is what you're
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: So much. It's like, it's like an unboxing for wine. So that's the, that's the bag for your audience. So today I am happy [00:07:00] to present to you a bottle of Joel Gott 815 Cabernet
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Sauvignon.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: 2021. So it's a year earlier than yours, and therefore it must be a better year because the older wine is the better it tastes or some kind of shit I've heard.
I don't know. So, that's what I got. I don't really drink wine ever. I pulled a wine glass that we had somewhere. I pulled a, I never even opened a bottle before. So like literally dude, you picked the wrong guy for this
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: No, this is perfect. So that's called a corkscrew. So we're going to get
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I got that. Yeah. Okay. So how, how do I like, does this rapper have to come off first?
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Yeah. But you should have a little cutter on your
corkscrew.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: they think of everything.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Yeah. You should have a little blade on that thing. Unless it's a TSA friendly corkscrew.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: It definitely could be. I mean, there's, I got like this, this, I got this, I got this. I don't see a blade on here. I mean, I can always go get a blade.
I was [00:08:00] homeschooled. I can think on my feet. Okay, so I'm currently trying to get off this this cap. Okay, I have access to the cork.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: This is like a play by play and I'm here for it.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Well, dude, I mean, you gotta tell your audience, right? You gotta keep retention. They got to keep looking like,
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: building right now. People are leaning in with baited breath.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Okay. Whatever. This is close enough. I got like the actual tip out. That's
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Okay, there we go.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: All right. So, so, so now what do I do? I got this bottle of wine in front of me.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: You can see the cork, correct?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Right. And then just screw it in.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: So yeah, you just put that in the middle of the corkscrew and you twist
till you get about one or two little curly cues from the top.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I did it. Okay. I'm like a few in.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: There we go. Now you'll see the little edge on the yep. So that goes on your wine bottle and then you take the handle on the other part and you leverage it against that.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Okay. I need a [00:09:00] few
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: And yours looks like you have a double so you can, as you get the cork out more you can go to the next setting.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Oh God, I'm afraid to try this. I'm doing it!
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Remember that time we had Tim Whitaker on the podcast and he doused himself in wine, opening a bottle. Yeah.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: this bottle? I feel like it's like trying to get a constipated poop out. Like you're just like slowly seeing this cork. Like come on, I don't wanna break, I'm gonna break this thing.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Oh, man, this is, we've
already gone off the rails and we just begun. This is exciting.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Oh, ah, I did it.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Ladies and gentlemen, I heard a cork pop.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Well, you guys do this for fun. This is terrible. Okay.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: you're going to need some wine after that.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Okay. Is that enough? I mean, how much do you pour in a wine glass? I don't even know.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: So
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Is that [00:10:00] good?
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: you want, yeah, you want that. And then you, you want to give a little swirl. There you go. Look at you. You just give a little swirl. That's going to aerate it, open it up. And then you just get your nose in there. You're going to smell it.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Smells like alcohol. Sounds like wine.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Yeah. Huh. And then you get a little sip.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Yeah. I, I, I taste hints of alcohol
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Okay. So give us a little perspective. What's your, what's your go to drink. Normally
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: 7 Eleven blueberry coffee. I do like 60 ounces of that a day, bro.
I walked to my local seven 11. I get a cup of their freshly brewed blueberry coffee. And I live off of that pretty much all day. I do about three cups a day.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Wow.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I don't do a lot of, I mean, I like sour beers and stuff, but like, it's rare.
It's so rare that I drink and it's not for a moral reason. It's just because I grew up fundamentalist. It's like not in my psyche to be like, Ooh, beer. [00:11:00] Like I never, when I'm out, I never check the cocktail menu. I don't care. You know why? Because 15 on a cocktail makes no sense, but 15 on more wings makes a lot of sense.
So I'd rather do that.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: That's fair, but a great cocktail with a meal with friends. And you know, for those of us, like I'm introverted, so I can kind of be shy in public settings. Give me a glass of wine and it chills me out a little bit and I can be a little bit more talkative. Yeah.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: knocking it, man. I will tell you.
I've, I've had more cocktails over the past few years over, you, know, good meal. And I will say there are really good cocktails out there. I totally get it for sure. But like my brain. Function has not been formed around food drink. It's just food, more food.
That's how it works anyway. Yeah. This tastes delicious, man. For 17 bucks. You can't beat it. Hmm.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Tim. And cheers to Cheers to a great conversation with a guy that doesn't drink a lot of [00:12:00] wine. I like it.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I'm here for it.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: We
we'll we'll take it Okay I've got some hard hitting questions for you
today. Tim. So you're gonna need that wine because
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: me drink more real quick. Give me a second.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: So here's i'm just gonna come right out of the gate
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Wait, is it, is it sacrilege? If I pour this in my seven 11 blueberry mug coffee
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: would be a little bit.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Okay. That I won't do that. I want to respect your show. It's
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: you want to keep in the glass That's gonna allow it to really
present itself to you
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: My bad. I apologize.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Okay, no, it's good. It's a fair question Okay. So here's my question How
have you not become a Calvinist when you can grow a beard better than any Theo bro I have ever seen?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I was a Calvinist. Then I left it because I was, I was predestined to
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Okay, how can you leave it when you can beat the Theo bros beard I
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: grow a mean beard and honestly I am what I call bro evangelical passing. Like I look like one of the bros, you know, I talk like the bros. I can even smoke a cigar [00:13:00] like the bros if I want to.
And that was, I mean, I wasn't really super into cigars, but I mean, I smoked them, but yeah, I mean, I grew up in like John MacArthur esque theology. So I definitely grew up a Calvinist believe that God sovereignly, you know, decreed me to go to heaven, yada, yada, yada. And then it turns out that God sovereignly decreed that I would not go to heaven by letting me deconvert.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Always say I've never met a Calvinist who wasn't chosen
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Right. Yeah, exactly. Like it's just, it's so weird how that works out. Like, it's so crazy how it just happens to be that I was chosen by God. I'm also a Calvinist. Like, wow. No
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Okay. So let's explore a little bit of your story for people who don't know. you mentioned Calvinism, fundamental Christianity. You have come from very traditional spaces. So I think when, if people just saw you today or just popped in, they might think, Oh, this guy is just, you know, some liberal out there to attack the church.
Not understanding like you literally came out of all of that. So just kind of [00:14:00] like reader's digest version for someone who may not know you, what's been your journey coming out of the church to wherever you would, wherever you would situate yourself today, theologically.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Yeah. But I mean, the long story short, I grew up at Jesus follower and I'm still a Jesus follower, you know, now that's taking me beyond where I grew up and how I grew up, but yeah, I grew up homeschooled. I grew up in a. Small independent, like Baptist church. It was not IFB, not the independent fundamentalist Baptist.
It wasn't that it was just its own non denominational Baptist John MacArthur kind of flavor started playing drums early on in the church at age 11. Eventually moved to more charismatic spaces because they had all the good music and the production. And I've, I've been an evangelical church mud. I've, I've planted churches with the Christian mission Alliance denomination.
I was part of the Assemblies of God denomination that's more charismatic. I was part of non denominational Baptist spaces that were much more Southern Baptist in how they presented. So I was all in, man. You know, I did it all. I helped plant churches, did worship stuff, did missions trips. And long story short, through a series of different [00:15:00] cultural movements and also me, Believing what I was taught, a.
k. a. take your faith seriously and own it and don't compromise. I essentially, at some point in my life, right around like 2016 said, I think something's wrong with, with, with, with the church that I'm growing up in is doing. Regarding it's like political views on Trump and just how it's kind of inhaling this stuff.
And then in 2020, enough things happen between Trump COVID and black lives matter that I said, well, I think they were on the wrong side of this stuff, but I have a lot of questions. I don't really know what's going on or how we got here. So I started the new evangelicals on Instagram completely. On a whim, like I had no clue what would happen.
I had had no clue what was going to happen and it became, you know, long story short, one of the largest like organizations that's in the more progressive Christian space now that's also digital focused. And so that's what I do all day is I, you know, make content and do interviews and we have a community, et cetera.
So that's kind of the very short version.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: I love it. How would you describe your faith [00:16:00] growing up? And let's, let's take a timeframe. Let's say like 10 years ago, how would you describe your faith from then to now? How has it changed?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I mean, on a cultural war issue, it's changed a lot. Like, you know, obviously I'm more pro choice now than I was. I'm obviously fully affirming of queer rights and also of my queer neighbors, including my Christian queer neighbors. But as far as the theology, I mean, 10 years ago, let's see, I put together, I mean, I was into like the Bible project I was thinking about, I was discovering that, that, that the Bible is way more complex and complicated than the proof texting game I was given as a young adult.
And as a kid, I was just starting to realize even 10 years ago, like, Oh, this Christian thing is bigger than I thought. So I don't know, like, I don't feel like my theology has changed a whole lot. It's, it's evolved as I've been able to know more about how the Bible and how the Christian tradition works.
One of the benefits of having a podcast where you interview scholars all day is you pick up on some of the stuff, some of the things that they're saying. And so, yeah, 10 years ago, I was probably more [00:17:00] moderate, like, okay, I would still hold these things, but I have a lot of questions of kind of wrestling through how, how, how does hell work?
Or, you know, is what does salvation mean? But as far as, you know, Yeah. I mean, I was pretty much really questioning Calvinism. I didn't really know if I, if I bought the idea that God sovereignly chose me and not my brother, for example, or something like that, I just had a lot of questions. And frankly, I do have a lot of questions still now, but I have some more clarity on kind of like, you know, what I was a part of, what I did believe and now kind of where I'm heading.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: You talk a lot about advocating for the marginalized in the church. Who do you have in mind when you say that? Like, what are their groups? Are there people? How does that manifest for you?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Yeah, I mean, I think broadly, I think about my queer neighbors, especially given the political climate, I think about my black neighbors, my immigrant neighbor, people who don't look like me or talk like me, my disabled neighbor. You know, I think about people that, that, that tend to be seen on like the fringes of society as a [00:18:00] people group.
You know what I mean? Right now we have. Trump and that whole right wing world and like they're laser focused on the quote unquote trans agenda. You know, the, they're coming for your kids. They're going to trans your kids. Like that really affects my trans neighbors who are like, what are you talking about?
I'm just a trans woman or trans man trying to survive in America, trying to get access to healthcare that I'm allowed to. Have access to. So, you know, I think that's a real easy example of what I think about when I use the term or when we use the term marginalized, but we also want to be careful because you can turn that into like a white savior complex really quick, if you're not aware of that.
Right. Because frankly, part of, I think being a Christian is your own sanctification. And as a, as a Christian, I don't want to fall into the trap of like, well, those poor people down there, let me help them. As opposed to seeing if Christ is. The marginalized as he taught us, you know what you did for the least of these, you did unto me, then what can they teach me about my worldview and how I, how I understand politics and culture and the world that, that, that I [00:19:00] grew up in.
So you want to make sure, at least I try to make sure that it's not a, I can save you kind of mentality, but what can I learn from you? And how do I stand in solidarity with you fighting for that better path forward that we all hope to see for all of our neighbors,
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: That's beautiful. Why do you think they continue to be marginalized in the church?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: who trans people are Just
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Just
the groups you just mentioned,
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Well, I mean, the LGBTQ top, look, that community is so it's the easiest one to talk about. But yeah, I mean, just look at the history. I mean, since, since the seventies, the eighties, even before that people like Jerry Falwell, you know, AIDS is God's judgment on gay people.
They've, they've been in the, in the wildlife for a long time. They've been in the crosshairs and I think it's for a couple of different reasons. I think one. For the average heterosexual American, it, it seems to them unnatural and anything that is unnatural or foreign must be scary. If I can't understand it, it must not, it must not be right.
There's also I think a lot of political interests in, in scapegoating entire [00:20:00] people groups as the problem, whether it's, it's our immigrant neighbor or our queer neighbor or our DEI hired neighbor, right? There's always some people group that we're looking at. That is the problem for all of the issues in the country.
And I think that there's also A theology that is just, that comes frankly out of slaveholder theology and segregationist theology that just is mapped onto the queer conversation. I mean, for example, if you read, and I have this on my computer, Bob Jones, the founder of Bob Jones university. If you read his sermons on segregation, If you just insert the word gay for black, you have the same exact arguments.
You have a few proof texts and you have, you had the same kind of rhetoric of like how people who wouldn't agree with Bob Jones on segregation are liberal and have been handed over to Satan and don't take the Bible seriously, same kind of rhetoric. So I think for me, it's just, you know, as I've learned more about history and just kind of the patterns that we've seen in American culture, I'm like, yeah, we've seen this playbook before and I'm not going to be complicit in using The Bible as a weapon of oppression to do [00:21:00] serious damage to neighbors that are fully made in the image of God.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: I love that. And that's, I would say that's been a shift in my life too. You know, I grew up as a preacher's kid, grew up in the church, was, you know, in, in formal ministry for two decades. And everything always started with a Bible verse, you know, like you've got to have a Bible verse for anything. And I flipped that now where it's not like I start at a Bible verse and then figure out how to love people.
I figure out how do I love people? And then I go to the Bible and go like, okay, what is it? You know, what does this help me make sense of this in a more holistic way? Have you, have you found that you changed the way you read the Bible in particular than the way you probably were raised
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Totally. I mean, look, the, the Bible is an ancient collection of documents that have had a very, they have a very long, complicated history of how we got our modern day Bibles. Certainly. I think that the scriptures in a unique way are maybe God breathed. I had no problem saying that that does not mean inerrant.
And I think we have to stop treating it like, like, like a puzzle board where we just find the right pieces. And as long as they fit, that must be the [00:22:00] truth. The Bible is a complicated collection of text, man, and people use it for all kinds of reasons. Some for good and some not for good. Just look, let's go back to that.
Topic of segregation. Look at how the black church used the Bible. Look at how, at how, at how MLK used scripture to justify the right of the liberation of the black community compared to how Bob Jones used it as a way to continue to marginalize black people. Right? So I think the Bible is, for me, it's more complicated and beautiful than ever.
And it doesn't give me all these, these simple answers. I was, I was taught it was given, you know, I'm sure you've heard this before. The Bible stands for basic instructions before
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: before leaving earth, Yeah.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: And like the, this is just nonsense. I'm sorry. It's not the Bible that we have. And it actually, in my opinion, it denigrates the Bible.
It really does a disservice to the Bible. So yeah, I would say absolutely. Like my relationship to the Bible has shifted for sure. I really start with the four gospel accounts. Let's just start, let me start with the words of Jesus first. And we can kind of work our way out. [00:23:00] I think that's kind of litmus test for the Christian anyway, as someone who claims to be a little Christ.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: I literally, as a kid had, had written in the opening cover of my Bible, basic instructions before leaving earth. Like that's like, that's just my childhood, right? That you're
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Yeah. I mean, I, how about the, the Bible pledge? This is my Bible. You know, I, I, today I would talk the word of God. I mean, there's, there's a, there's pledges I would do in church that would just kind of be like this little like mantra of like what the Bible is. And looking back, I'm like, I don't think that's accurate.
And I care about truth. I care about accuracy. You know, I, I think that the modern evangelical movement has largely done a disservice. They've kind of pillaged the Bible for their own nefarious gains. Kind of just cherry picking verses. That'd be clear. All of us are going to pick and choose. Verses in the Bible that we're going to either see as prescriptive or descriptive, right?
Hopefully most of us don't want to stone people caught in adultery. The Bible has verses that, that demand that. So I'm not trying to say like, Oh, I am biblical and they are not, but we just have a different [00:24:00] framework for how we interpret the Bible. And honestly, I want love and justice and inclusion and liberation to be kind of my framework of how I think about the scriptures, not oppression, you know, et cetera.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: So are you saying the Bible's not clear, Tim?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I, know, I know. I, I, I don't want to blow your audience's mind, but the Bible is not, it's clear. Maybe on some things you can find clarity, you know, but it's not super clear on a lot of things, right? Especially if you look at like the Hebrew Bible, that's what we call the old Testament compared to the new Testament.
There's some serious discrepancies in, in how God functions, right? And look as Christians, most of us would hold to a Trinitarian view of God, the father of the Holy spirit. I'm one of them. So I think that God is the same God in the Hebrew Bible and Jesus, you know, but they operate pretty differently.
The God in the Hebrew Bible is like, go kill and conquer your enemies and wipe them all out. And Jesus is like, well, you should love your enemies. It's like, okay, well, ah, so if I had to pick, I'm going to go with love every time. [00:25:00]
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: I like it. That's good. I think we should charge,
like, if a pastor just says the phrase, The Bible is clear. Like, you should, like a, like a swear jar. Like, five bucks. It goes in a jar. You don't get to say that.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Instant Like, no, give me your hand.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Yes, I love
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Yeah.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: We would have, we would have a lot of money to give to, you know, the poor if we if we charge pastors a
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Well, you know, we
are a nonprofit. I do want a jet, so maybe we can use it for that instead.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Hey, you and Kenneth Copeland, you can, you can
make it
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Cool. Yeah. Yeah. I like that
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Okay. A lot of what you create, a lot of your digital content, Yeah, there we go Is is based around politics and you do such a good job in real time I'm always amazed how fast you know, I'll read a news headline and then BAM you're you're showing up on my feed with a Hot take on it.
How do you make sense of like, what do you think the right? Level of political involvement is as a Christian
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Well, I mean, politics is just how [00:26:00] people and how humans organize, right? I think the Bible and the Christian tradition has a lot to say about that. So I think we should be completely politically active. How we do that matters. You know, you're never going to hear me say that, and I'll put it this way. I have agreed it with my Christian nationalist brethren.
Who would say like, you know, this idea of just preach the gospel, don't get involved in politics is garbage. I would say, I agree. The gospel is inherently political, right? When the apostle Paul says that Jesus Christ is Lord and the scriptures, that's a political statement, usurping the phrase Caesar is Lord.
It's kind of like, it's kind of like a middle finger. I'm all about that for sure. So I think Christians should be politically active. It just depends on what we're advocating for and whose rights are we really concerned about.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: That's good. You do a great job sharing more of the depth and the breadth of Christian faith traditions. In fact, you use an analogy and I think You were the first I ever heard this analogy from that I have since used a ton of, you know, growing up in the basement of a house [00:27:00] and discovering there's more rooms and more floors.
And I think that's such a. helpful way of understanding it. What have you found in your work to be the most useful in getting Christians to understand how to expand their sense of what Christianity is?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: You know, just read wider, like stop reading evangelical authors and check out what David Bentley Hart is writing. He's an Eastern Orthodox guy. You know, check out what some of the biblical scholars who participate in biblical criticism are writing. I think that's kind of the beginning. Read from the black book.
Christian tradition in America. Look up James Cone or maybe read some Jamar Tisby, something like that. You know, I think those are really important pieces of like, just get outside the bubble that you think is the only true version of Christianity. And once you do that, you have to reckon with some pretty hard questions, I think.
And yeah, I guess. I don't know if it wasn't intentional, but I just started using that house analogy since the beginning. So I guess I kind of coined it, but very much so. Like when you start reading, you kind of get your head above ground and you're like, Oh, wait a second. [00:28:00] There are other Christians committed to the way of Jesus who take their faith incredibly seriously in the Bible, incredibly seriously who come to very different conclusions than what my white evangelical tradition taught me.
How is that possible? And again, you keep reading, you keep realizing the world's bigger than you.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: I just think that analogy is so good. Again, it just comes up naturally in conversations where I'll tell people either about my journey or what I'm encouraging them to experience, which is, Hey, you know, this one room of the house really well. Like
you, you know every nook and cranny of this room, but this house is huge and like you haven't explored it. and
and just inviting
them, like open some doors, you know, check out the stairs.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: the thing, right? Let's use this house analogy. I'm not asking you to move your, your stuff from one room to the other. I'm not saying that you have to go plant in the Eastern Orthodox tradition, right? But at least explore it to take it in and realize that there's a history here. And really every room of the Christian tradition has its own little mini universe with its own [00:29:00] theologians and philosophers and people who have moved things forward.
So I just think it's disingenuous to be like, well, I'm a Calvinist and I have the, I have the answers about the Bible that no one else has. And I have the right answers and the Catholics are heretics and the Eastern Orthodox are heretics and the charismatics are heretics. I'm not sure if you've ever seen that, that, that, that meme where it's like, it's like a stick figure drawing and it has like all these different branches of different denominations.
And if the stick figures talking to like a bunch of students and it's pointing to one and it's like, and the caption says, and that's when we were born and got everything right. It's like, yeah, exactly. It's like so disingenuous to think that you are very modern and very new iteration of Christianity that is white evangelicalism in America is somehow the true Orthodox biblical faith and anything that's not, that is somehow problematic.
I mean, the Catholic church predates Protestantism by like over a thousand years. Think about that whenever I hear a protest to be like those Catholics are [00:30:00] heretics I'm like, you know that they gave you the modern Bible that you have now Essentially, they gave you the faith that Martin Luther inherited that then iterated on how about some respect?
I'm not saying it's all good or all bad. I'm just saying They were here before us. Maybe they have some more insight to the Christian tradition that gets closer to the apostles than we do. Why don't we learn from that? Right? I, so I think, well, big picture, my approach shifted from judgment to curiosity, right?
From like, no, they're wrong. And I'm right to, huh? Well, I might not agree ultimately, but I am kind of curious. I am kind of curious why people devote their entire life to the Catholic tradition. What is it that's so compelling for a man to go into the priesthood and give up so much, right? What history is there that I never knew about?
And am I steel manning or am I straw manning their positions? It does the Catholic faith really teach you know, a works based salvation or is that a caricature that was given to me by my Protestant tradition? So I think that really matters,
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: [00:31:00] It reminds me, I was in a seminary class and we were talking about baptism methods. And you know, I was raised very much. It's always adults who choose it. And, and they were talking about infant baptism. And I just remember so clearly, you know, being programmed to just dunk on that view of like, There is no such thing as infant baptism and only idiot Christians
believe this. And then in that class, someone who was in that tradition argued for it and made such a compelling argument that
I had never heard before. And I just remember like, that was a moment for me where I went and again, I didn't have the house analogy then, but it was like, Oh, this house is huge. You know, like, holy cow.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: And isn't that such a better way of living that the world is bigger than you, that you are not the center of the universe, that God did not design one narrow version of one faith. Just for you that maybe there's more to explore in the world. Like maybe this is a lifelong journey of just exploring different ways of being Christian.
And by the way, if we're going to really stretch people out [00:32:00] there, that's not even considering other world religions. We're not talking about Islam here, Hinduism, Buddhism, they all have their own mega universes. Right? And again, I'm not saying jump ship and deconvert and become a Muslim. But I'm saying though, is that maybe The character the, the, the, the caricature we were given by white evangelical apologists, maybe it's kind of misleading and that's not the full picture.
Maybe we can find some beauty there. Maybe we can find some goodness there and say, wow, God really is a creative God that goes way beyond our little, our little narrow section of, of, of not only history in the sense of time, but also in terms of like just our cultural context. Right. I mean, even if you took.
A young earth creationist view of the world, which I completely reject. But let's just say we did. Let's say we're talking about 7, 000 years of human history. You really think that like your faith tradition nailed it. You really think like, like there's nothing else out there to learn that is true and good and beautiful and lovely and as compelling.
[00:33:00] And that you just found it in this like modern evangelical church structure. And that just leads you to be more, a little more racist, a little more xenophobic things that gay people are going to hell and somehow you nailed it. Come on, dude. Come on. It doesn't make any sense. It's like, I, I thought about all this as I was kind of renegotiating my faith.
And I thought, I can't, this is not compelling anymore. I want to know what else is out there. How big is this God? If God spoke the world into existence and created all humans and humanity that would eventually flourish into other ways of being that are not my own. Certainly there has to be a trace of God in some of this stuff.
Again, we can, we can debate all the theology and heaven and hell. I get all of that, but my God, let's debate it then let's not assume that we have some kind of magical corner on these. Ethereal realities. We're trying to figure out that we can't see, taste, touch or hear. I'll stop ranting, but that's kind of how I think about it.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: No, that's great. And I think people listening to this podcast are probably totally resonating with that because if you follow, you know, a podcast like this or your podcast, like you, [00:34:00] you probably do have a, a natural curiosity, which is leading you to say, Hey, I want to experience other views and other perspectives, but here's what I would say in Tim, you have plenty of experience to know this as Well, We have both met plenty of people who we would say are not remotely spiritually curious. And I think about someone you recently, I don't know if you did an episode with or what it was. I saw the clip on social media. You were interviewing a Christian nationalist and you had asked him the question that I saw that I literally just watched it a few times because I couldn't believe it. Is you said something to the effect of, Hey, and if you had your perfect Christian nation would there be room for the LGBTQ community to thrive? I think that was your question. And he like pauses, thinks about it. And then basically has the most ludicrous close minded answer of like, no, they should go back in the closet where they belong.
I mean, I could not believe his answer to you. And then at the end, you just said, okay, thanks. Like, thanks for putting [00:35:00] that on the record.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: yeah. And what makes that clip worse is that I asked him, could a Christian nationalists have slavery? And he said, yes, if it's regulated. So in that same clip, he says that a Christian nation can have slavery that's regulated, but cannot have gay people inside of it. And so, yeah, you're totally right.
And that, that, that was a debate. I was asked to join. He wasn't on my show. His name was Kenton and it was on someone else's podcast. Yeah.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: so when you, when you meet that person who has, you know,
not a lot of curiosity there, what do we do? Like, what do we do when we are trying to move the Christian tradition forward in a healthier Jesus looking way when other brothers and sisters in the faith are not interested at all in exploring the other rooms of the house with us.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Well, first off, I know why you had your guest drink wine. It makes sense now. Yeah. I get it. I get it. I get it. I, I, I'm thinking I'm like, I'm like, man, I'm real ranty in this episode. Yeah, no, I understand. I understand a little bit of liquid courage to really unleash the beast. So,
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: That's amazing.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: [00:36:00] get
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: it, Tim. Come on.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: when I'm totally sober, which I am sober right now, by the way, I could do a whole test.
I'm just kidding. Yeah, I mean, this is where it gets tricky, right? What do you do with people, especially Christians who want to cause harm to people that are made in the image of God? I have a two pronged approach on a systemic level. You fight them like hell you fight against your political interests.
You'd fight to pass legislation that protects your queer neighbor. You, you are loud and bold on social media denouncing such a twisted gospel. For sure. On an individual level, you do whatever you can do pragmatically to try and find an in with those people to convince them to repent. Now I'm not saying that's possible or even should be done by everyone.
But for me as a white dude, a white bro evangelical passing guy, certainly, you know, his name was Kenton. I would have a, a private, not online drink with him trying to first understand what he's thinking and then try to find the, the, you know, the weakness in the armor, be able to say, Hey ma'am, you Have you thought about this?
Because I'll tell you what, for me, not that I was ever that extreme. I never was, but I was [00:37:00] a conservative evangelical. I grew up on talk radio. It wasn't the people calling me a bigoted asshole online that got me to rethink my positions. It was friends. It was my first gay coworker I ever met that totally blew apart my preconceived notions of what it meant to be gay.
Those little seeds were planted that led me to be more and more curious. So, you know, I don't know if that's the perfect prescription for this, but we have to have a both and approach, especially as Christians. If Jesus says to his own executors executioners, father, forgive them. They know, they know not what they do.
What does that mean for the Christian? But then we have to go even deeper. There's a difference, I think, for the white Christian versus the black Christian, or the white Christian and the gay Christian. I don't know if I, as a white man, can tell my gay neighbor who's a Christian, Hey dude, you gotta talk to that guy Kenton who wants to throw you back in the closet.
That's not my call to make. Okay. That's just not my call. If that gay Christian feels a conviction from the Holy Spirit and wants to do that, that's on them. But it's easy for me to say that because this person's not talking about me. So [00:38:00] you have to kind of be careful with like how we, how we use some of this language.
I, I try to be careful. I'm not perfect with it, but I try and be clear of like, look, when it comes to people who in our society are below me, you know, when it comes to like our, our intersectionality, I don't really police how they navigate this stuff. It's not my place. They have people inside their universes who are doing that, right?
But for the, for me as a white Christian, my goal is to wake white Christians up to say, you better fight like hell against the shit that you and I helped build. You better be outspoken about this stuff. You better think about what it means to engage some of these conversations privately, to sow seeds of doubt, to hopefully get someone to repent because ultimately we don't believe in violence, right?
We believe in composting. I don't believe in destroying it. I want to, I want to I want to take white supremacy and white nationals, but I want to compost it and make it a beautiful fertile soil for new things to flourish that promote the wellbeing of all of our neighbors. Right. And so that's kind of the attitude I try to go in with when it comes to these conversations.
It just depends on the context.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: [00:39:00] That's a hot take right there, Tim. I
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Well, you got me drinking. I mean, I don't drink much. I'm a lightweight. I've had three sips and I'm like, everything is spinning. The room is spinning. This is not real. I'm dreaming.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Love it. That's so good. Okay. So one of the things you do really well is in addition to what we've already talked about is you, you hold churches and leaders accountable. You fight like hell against
the system as you just said it. I would say if that alone, like that's, that's all the job security you ever need for new evangelicals because there's so much that needs to be held accountable.
But here's like on a personal level, how do you stay hopeful? in in the midst of how much there seems to be that is gone off the rails and you're calling it out regularly. How does that not just like create an inner sense of dread in you? How do you, how do you keep hopeful throughout that?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Well,
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: The wine? Is [00:40:00] it the wine?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: A couple of things. First off, let's be very clear. I do believe in a unique way that the church can be the hope of the world. I don't mean though, the white evangelical mega church culture. We've mapped onto church. The church is the gathering of Christ, right? It's the body of Christ gathering for worship and community and loving their neighbors.
Well, that's a beautiful thing. I mean, we are communal creatures. We're communal beings. We need to be in community to each other. We With a sense of purpose that we are here to do good work. I love that. That's beautiful. The white, and by the way, every church tradition has their problems, but I'm not a black man.
I'm a white man. So I look at my own tradition, right? The white evangelical culture I was raised in is deeply problematic because of how it's structured. The systems and how they're formed, right? The, what we've mapped onto this church idea, the, the hierarchies, the one senior pastor idea that rules over everyone else, sometimes very unaccountably these mega churches where we think that, whoa, Steven Furtick is so blessed by God because [00:41:00] he's a millionaire who preaches a half baked prosperity gospel.
What? Like, how is that success for a Christian? Like just read the Beatitudes, you know, blessed are the meek, not the rich and powerful. Right? So I think that we, I think that's how I view this stuff is for me, my critique of church culture isn't to just like destroy and have rubble that we plant the flag on and say, we did it, but it's like, guys, it could be so much better.
It can be so much better than this. And by better, I don't mean more, more, more, or bigger, bigger, bigger. And by the way, to your audience, I have the cred for this. I used to drum in a very professional environment every Sunday morning, full production. Even right now, my in ears are my molds that I use. Like I'm into this stuff.
Okay. I have terabytes of drumming GoPro footage of me playing at a very high level that would make most people blush. I see. I want to filter dude. Look what you've done. It's this freaking alcohol. But I said it because I know what I know. I will go, I'll say this. I know how compelling it is to be in [00:42:00] an environment that you find beautiful and how compelling it is to be in a high production environment where worship music is a really high bar.
I understand that. I'm not even saying it's inherently wrong. It's just not the major call of the church. Like the call of the church is not to build big mega everything. The call of the church is to love your neighbor as yourself and to worship in embodied with other people. So to me, I'm like, I love church.
I miss church. I want to go back to church. But if these structures keep on hurting people, if we have leaders who are unaccountable, who are like literally in some cases molesting children, and then the church culture I'm a part of is like, you know, who's really dangerous in America, the undocumented immigrant, the trans person in your neighborhood.
Drag queen story hour. And I'm like, guys, you know, that there's story after story of pastors, molesting children, and also systemic abuse coming out, like in the case of the SBC hiding it for decades, maybe we should take, I don't know, the log out of our own eye, wink, wink, nudge, [00:43:00] dodge. Right. And so to see my tradition be so mute on real issues inside the house.
While being like, it's the, it's the trans people who are ruining America. I'm like, wow, that is just misplaced anger and you got to turn that thing around. So that's kind of how I think about it.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Yeah. I was raised probably like you to be so concerned of all these agendas. And no one told me the thing as an adult that I would be most concerned is the Christian agenda.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Right. I mean, dude, first Corinthians five, I was not, I was like 19 years old when I read first Corinthians five. I'm like, Oh shit. Paul says that it is the job of us to hold those inside the church accountable and that God will judge those outside. This was like, I was still a conservative evangelical.
Cool. And I'm like, guys, maybe, I don't know, call me, call me a maniac. But it seems like we're aiming this, this metaphorical gun at the wrong group of people. And it just always blew my mind that like, there's, there's clear calls to hold those inside accountable, not the world. And we've totally inverted it.
These leaders get away sometimes with literal [00:44:00] murder or financial embezzlement or all kinds of abuse, narcissism. No problem. I mean, dude, look at Mark Driscoll. Mark Driscoll
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: He's a, he's in my backyard, man.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Dude, I met him at America fest. Well, I ran into him. I didn't say hi, but you know, Mark Driscoll is a great example of this.
He's burned down churches. He's found by 40 of his own elders to be not qualified to be a pastor today. He has a larger platform that he's ever had before. He's approaching the million follower Mark on Instagram. You're telling me Mark Driscoll represents a healthy Christian culture. Are you joking right now?
Like, get me out of here. I need something, whatever I'm moving into cannot be this. Right. So that's just, I think one example of, I look at that and I go, something's wrong. I love the church and therefore I'm going to hold it accountable.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: So a question I get asked, and I suspect you probably get asked this too. when
when you're vocal
against the church and you say criticisms and you, you hold, you know, within the community, you hold it [00:45:00] accountable. People go, well, why, why are you still even a Christian then? Because it seems like you've got so many issues.
Yeah. I'd love to hear like, why do you still find Jesus so compelling despite all of the bullshit of Christians?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Well, you just read the words of Jesus and I'm like, yes, I want that. You know, it's like saying, why are you still an American when you're critiquing Trump? Because I care about the country I live in because like, I think that America could do better. Well, I think that Christians can do better. And frankly, for me, following the way of Jesus is ultra compelling.
Again, blessed are the meek, blessed are the poor in spirit, the last shall be first, the first shall be. It's such an inverted way of thinking, right? And it also, it's self reflective too. I take out the lock out of your own eye. There's something about the way of Jesus that I just find ultimately so compelling that I believe would make the world a better place.
It would bring a glimpse of heaven to earth instead of bringing hell on earth. Right. And as a Christian, I want to find that. Wherever God is and partner with God to do that for me, it's to the [00:46:00] Christian tradition. But, and again, I might rock the boat here with some of your followers, but there are plenty of people in other faiths doing great work.
My friend, Cassandra, she, a devout Muslim doing great human rights work. Great. Let's work together. Let's, let's find a way to bring heaven on earth. So I think that's, that's what it is for me. You know, it's just very compelling overall.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Love it. Okay.
So I want you to weigh in on a debate that is an ongoing debate in, in circles that I walk in and I want to see your take on this So this involves how to raise kids when you have deconstructed and you've gone through a bunch of the stuff that we've gone through. So there's, there's two arguments and I, I think there's merit in both.
And so I want to see where, where does Tim land on this? Is it better to give our kids the same foundation we had? Okay. So to say, Hey, I grew up in these, you know, evangelical spaces. So I'm going to put my kids in a similar youth group. So they have the same starting point I had and then lead them along where we have come out of [00:47:00] that.
We have worked through that. And so then they have that as a reference point. Okay. Or is It better to say, Hey, we're going to just have you skip that entirely. And we're going to have you grow up where we've landed now. The danger of that one being what if they meet some, you know, conservative Christian who says ideas they've never heard before.
And then they're so intrigued by it because they're like, Oh, I didn't know this other part of, you know, Christianity existed. So I have a lot of, you know, parents in these space going, do we give them a similar childhood to us? Or do we fast forward them to where we are now? But what does that do when they didn't have that as a foundation?
Does that make sense?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: It does. I would. If we're talking about the kind of stereotypical evangelical upbringing that I had, I would never put my kids through that. I'm not going to have my kid be sat down at age six in front of a fire and told this is where you're going to go. If you don't pray a prayer, never going to happen, like never in a billion trillion years, I would, I would die.
If before that happened, [00:48:00] I would much rather bring my kids into where I am now and then be able to guide them and give that perspective through my filter of like, Hey, some people believe this FYI, you know, but it doesn't really make sense. Right. Because if God is love, you know, ABCD and E, I would much rather that much rather that than be like, yeah, go to youth group where like, statistically, there's a good chance your pastor could be a predator.
And that you're going to learn like really unhealthy purity cultured shit about like how you're inherently sinful if you masturbate like, no, absolutely not doing that. No way, Jose. It's not even a question.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Wow.
There we
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Well, why would I? I mean,
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Well, because, okay. So the,
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: taking you, at your word of like, of like the stereotypical, not like not healthy.
I mean, there are definitely healthier expressions of this, make no mistake. But if you're like, Hey, you're going to grow up like how your dad grew up and have that experience. Then we'll move you along. No, that's not going to happen.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: so the pushback is someone would say, well, that was your background and look where you are now. Like
you came out of it. You're okay. You know
what I
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: one of the few I'm okay. No way [00:49:00] people. Do you know that I have I have grown ass adults in my DMS Who are still scared about the rapture?
I have grown ass adults in my DMS who have kids who are like, I'm so terrified of burning in hell one day because I was six years old when this happened to me.
No, they're not. We're not okay. Like to be clear to that person, that straw man person you invented, if they're listening, they're not, we're not okay. We're not good. Women in particular have way. Less pleasurable sex. They don't know how to orgasm because they're so tense all the time. This is a real talk, you know, like the data is out there.
I would never put my kids through that. I would much rather bring my kids into where I am now with openness and curiosity and expose them to that right appropriately as things came up for sure. It's almost kind of like, I mean, this is maybe not, not the best example, but since we have alcohol here, it's like saying, you know, well, Hey, I grew up an alcoholic and I went to rehab.
So. I guess my kids can go, can go through that, that, that, that process too. Like, no, I would much rather introduce it to my kids now responsibly, then be like, yeah, [00:50:00] guys do what I did and it's going to be great. You'll be fine. You're not going to be fine, dude. I'm never coming back on this podcast again and drinking.
I'm looking at this. I've only, I've had half a glass. I've had half a glass.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: as he
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Aren't you glad that that I made this interview happen a half hour later than expected?
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: This is, this is so great. this is
this is why.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I'm, I'm kind of unhinged no matter what, no matter if I'm drinking or not, but I do feel like this has given me just a little bit of an extra push. It's a tiny smidge and I don't like it, but I kind of
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: starting to see my strategy here on this podcast. We get people to talk about God with a little bit of lubrication, you
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: gotta, I gotta listen to April's interview and see how she did.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Oh, I did
a whole montage
of April talking about her peach wine and how much. her peach wine was affecting her. So there's the clip out there. You got to
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: love it. I
love it so
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: She, [00:51:00] she had a good time too.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Yeah. She's great. Yeah. She's wonderful.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Okay, on a, on a human note, let us, let us a little bit behind the curtain. How do you personally deal with the negativity that you receive from other Christians on the work we do? I know that you've got tough skin. You've been doing this a long time. You're still a human who at some point has, has emotions.
And when someone comes at you with, Hey, I know it's got to hurt. How, how have you learned how to Take care of yourself through that.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Honestly, I, it doesn't really affect me. I don't see half the comments cause we get so many of them. I will tell you this. If I get pushed back from people I respect, that's when I pay attention. Right. If it's like, Hey dude, you kind of messed up here. And it's from like a friend of mine who I really respect.
I'm like, I'm, I'm laser focused. Like what's going on. If it's some random, you know, real bro evangelical and Instagram comments, like you were never a real Christian. I literally go. Okay. And I just kind of move on, you know, I mean, and this is, this is the internet, right? It's the internet. People [00:52:00] are, aren't going to like me on Twitter.
You know, I have no intellectual respect for the world of fundamentalism anymore. And so when they, you know, say, you're not, you're not really a Christian. You don't know what you're talking about. Okay. Like I, I have nothing to prove to you. It doesn't because you know why, unless I grovel and beg you become one of you, you're never going to accept me and that's fine.
And so I'm just going to, I'm going to move on. So to me, I don't think about it. I'm, I'm focused on our community, on hearing feedback from them, on hearing feedback from friends of mine who I deeply respect other leaders that I really respect. That's where my attention lies these days.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: That's good. Okay. So I want to wrap up with a handful of questions. I like to ask each guest and then we get to compare your answers to previous guests.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I'm ready
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Here we go. What is something you used to believe that it turned out later you were wrong about
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: that gay people were inherently sinful.
[00:53:00] Next.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: check. Okay. That's good. That's good. What do you see as the main issue or issues facing Christianity in America today?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Unbridled Christian nationalism in bed with the state with no, no call from within the house for a reckoning.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: It doesn't look good in the next four years, my man.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: no. I mean, I'm going to use some strong language here. You can bleep it, but we're really f****d. Like it's going to be very, it's going to be a very difficult four years. Now the resistance is important. Rebelling is, it's important. We can't give up ground because we feel defeated. That's not me saying, you know, just wave the white flag that it means is double down because it's going to be a very difficult four years.
In my opinion.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Okay. And then the talk right now is, you know, Meta just came out and said, we're, we're stopping all the fact checking and all the socials as someone who does so much digital content. What's your, what's your take?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Yeah, I mean, it's essentially the playbook of what Elon [00:54:00] Musk did to X. You know, Nick Fuentes was unbanned. Listen, whenever I post on X, you know what kind of comments I get now? He looks Jewish. Dude, your nose is so big. Dude, you're gay. Hey, you're a and then they use the R word. I mean, this is the kind of stuff I get there.
And it's like, no problem. So, I mean, it's, I think it's nonsense, but it's, it's expected because billionaires don't really have ethics. They want to go wherever the markets are going to go and they want to cozy up to whoever's in power, right. To accommodate them, to keep their position. So I'm not shocked by this, but I think it's going to turn Instagram and threads into a complete shit show.
And listen, as a creator, I mean, I'm going to benefit from not being as. Quote unquote, you know, censored, which I really wasn't to begin with, but there were, there were times where I would say like Hitler, am I supposed to get taken down? I'm like, no, I'm trying to critique Hitler. So I get the frustration, like to be clear, I get the frustration.
I really do. But like the move that Zuckerberg, the video he released is pretty much typical. Hey, you know what guys, we're going to just embrace right wing talking points about free speech and, you know, and getting rid of fact checkers for being too biased. Dude, [00:55:00] the truth is biased. I mean, I can quote.
Now defamed Ravi Zacharias, the sexual abuser, but he would say truth is exclusive. Yeah. Yeah, Mark. The truth is exclusive. A fact checker is not biased for giving someone who believes a lie the truth.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Yeah.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: So I'm not really a fan of it, but again, I mean, we're going to, you're watching the billionaires make their moves.
Trump has the most billionaires in any cabinet in history. Elon Musk is cozying up to him. Like we live under an oligarchy and the right wing quote unquote grassroots movement has actually been funded by billionaires to give the illusion of it being grassroots funded to vote against their own interests.
That's what's so crazy about this. Like you're voting against your own interests, but anyway, that, those are my long winded thoughts on that.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Are you going to shift your strategy at all, or just
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: No, I mean, you know, social media, social media, we have to utilize it. We are, I'm not going to give up ground. We have to be there, but we [00:56:00] are building out our own community space for this year that will be completely off of those platforms.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: That's good. What is something that's blowing your mind right now?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Ooh, this wine.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Yeah, it is. Welcome to Cabernet
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I'm in bro. I'm in Joel got eight 15 Cabernet. I'm in. 2021 I'm in.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: We've made a believer out of
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Should I just start drinking out of the bottle?
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Just house it, man. just
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I'm just like, yeah, this is really good stuff. I'm going to air it a little bit.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Okay. Other than the wine, what's blowing your mind right now?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Oh, what's blowing my mind right now? Dude, I don't even know. What's blowing my mind right now is that everything in my personal life is just so good and I'm enjoying it. My family's healthy. I have great kids. I love what I get to do for a living. It's been an amazing 2024 on a personal level.
I'm pumped for 2025 again on a personal level. So I think that it's just blowing my mind that that right now life is this [00:57:00] good. I'm just trying to ride the wave.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: That's awesome. I'm happy for you.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Thank you.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: what is a problem that you're trying to solve?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Christian nationalism. I mean, I'm sorry. It is like, it's always that and helping people find a better path forward in their faith.
That's really it.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Yeah, that's good.
what's something you're excited about right now?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: We're launching a, we're releasing a book this year. Yeah, August 12th, I think is the release date. So yeah, I wrote a
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: you tell us more?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Nope. That's all I got. They're going to release the cover art. I think like in February pre orders will go live and then we hit the ground running, trying to promote and get pre orders.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Title, theme, anything?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: It's called, well, can I announce what, .
It's called the new, I'm drunk on power, bro. Literally. It's called the new evangelicals making room for a bolder wilder. [00:58:00] No, that's not it. I totally butchered it. Hold on.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: why you need some reps to get it out. Yeah, yeah.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Stop. it. Oh, I got to pull up the cover art day. Dude, this wine hits quick. Jesus. I got to pack to go to Chicago after this. I'm not even sure how I can do that. Thanks to you.
I'm never, I'm never coming back on.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Just so you know, you are going to get your own montage of wine
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Good, good.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: because this is so good.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Dude, I'm so giggly. Okay. The new evangelicals making room for a wider, wilder faith.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Ooh, I like that.
Yeah.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Thank you.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: I'll pre order it.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I'm just kidding. Write me a book and give me a title. There we go. See how easy it is.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: I, don't think chat GPT would come up with what's going to be in that book. So I
think you're going to be okay. That's
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I can't believe I'm saying that, but I, I mean, I had so little. Is it that, is it that potent? Like just a little, a couple of sips and you're like toasty.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: If you don't drink. So I've been, I've been drinking. I started [00:59:00] when, when the episode was scheduled, you know, half an hour before you showed up and I'm fine, but I, this is not my first rodeo.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Yeah. No, I'm a real freaking lightweight. I mean, geez Louise.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: You can tell lightweights on the podcast.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: And dude, I'm six foot four, 255 pounds. Like I look like I can hold my liquor. No, I cannot. Cannot. Right here.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: It's not that 7 Eleven coffee anymore, Tim.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I know, bro. What the hell?
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: We've gone into the hard stuff. Okay is there anything else? We've
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: No, I'm done.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Is there anything else you want to add that I may not have asked you about that we cannot close this out until we address?
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I repent for my sin of being tipsy on the air.
I got nothing else, man. I appreciate you for real having me on it, but it was a lot of fun. Even, I mean, it worked out well. Me being, forgetting about our podcast, it makes for great content. So hopefully you go viral for that, you know? So I appreciate you still having me, having me on and making the meeting possible.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: You know, it's just, it's you committed to, the bit. I [01:00:00] appreciate that. That's
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I had to, man. I had to commit. If we're going to go all in, let's just freaking go, you know?
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: I love it. All right. I'm going to put a bunch of links in the show notes, but just generally, how do people find you online? If they're listening, they're like, Hey, I like this guy a lot.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Yeah. Anywhere that the new evangelicals name is, is where we are. Instagram, Tik TOK, podcast, Twitter threads, blue sky, Facebook, YouTube, the new evangelicals.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: And you don't have your own stuff anywhere, right? You're just new evangelicals.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I have a personal account now that's public called at Tim Whitaker speaks. I'm kind of trying to, for a lot of good reasons, trying to give myself a little bit of separation. So I have a kind of my own voice as well. So you can follow me there for more, more, more of my personal, just like kind of during the day thoughts and kind of behind the scenes stuff, more personal life stuff.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Yeah. Hey, we, we want more personal Tim
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I'm so mad at you. I got to pack for Chicago. I'm interviewing Reverend Otis Moss, the third, like one of the most powerful black evangelical black Christian pastors in America.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: today.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: and I can't even think straight. [01:01:00] Hashtag
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: Well, Tim, I enjoy all the episodes of Cabernet and Pray. I really enjoyed today. This was worth waiting for. I, seriously, I
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: worth the weight, bro.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: I love the work that you're doing with New Evangelicals. I am pushing people to you all the time. You are such a breath of fresh air.
You're putting in the work. Putting your voice out there and you are giving community and space to a lot of people who desperately need something like that. So thank you for that. Thank you for taking time out of your day to join us. This has been fantastic.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Wait, I, I'm sorry, I just, I'm, I'm committed to the bit, I found the knife in the corkscrew holder. I found it!
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: So the knife, when I said, Hey, there'll be a knife on that. And you said, there's no
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I was like, I don't see it dude, well it turns out when you get tipsy, it presents itself because it's right here.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: [01:02:00] That's incredible.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: I'm literally crying.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: It just took us to the end of the episode for you to find the knife.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Oh my god, dude, you know, is this what it feels like to be tipsy all the time? You're just happy and everything's hilarious.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: This is why everyone loves this podcast. It's it's we're always happy.
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Oh, the world's burning outside. I'm like, this is hilarious. Hey, but for real, man, I appreciate you having me. It means a lot. And let's definitely keep in touch.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: That's awesome. Well,
Hey everybody. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Cabernet and Pray. We will catch you on the next one. And that's the end of
tim_1_01-08-2025_133605: Oh, goodness.
jeremy_2_01-08-2025_113605: And I'll see you in the next one. Bye!
