Episode 42 - Gisela
===
Streamer X Main: [00:00:00] I often refer to myself as the wine pastor, and today you're going to meet the wine theologian. In this space of church, Christianity, and wine, Gisela Kreglinger is a huge deal. In fact, when I resigned from being a lead pastor and I started exploring, maybe doing something with Christianity and wine, Gisela's books were the ones that I read.
I mean, she is the one charting the way in this conversation, one of the big names to bring these two worlds together. And for a long time I've wanted to have her on the podcast and it finally worked out. And I'm so excited for you to get to hear her perspective in today's episode. Now she grew up on a winery in Germany where her family has been crafting wine for many generations.
It shaped the experiences that she has had. She holds two master's degrees in [00:01:00] biblical studies and a Ph. D. in historical theology. She teaches Christian spirituality in the academy, on her annual wine pilgrimages in churches and every time an opportunity comes up around the dinner table. She's the author of numerous books including cup overflowing, the spirituality of wine and the soul of wine.
She is an absolute gem of a person and incredibly knowledgeable in what she's talking about. You're in for a treat today. Now one bit of housekeeping, I do want to just make a note. There were some technical issues with the audio in this episode. I have done my very best in the recording to fix as much of it as I can, but there's still some there.
So that's not normally the case on these episodes. I did want to just say that in advance. And ask for your grace. This episode is so good that it's worth listening even with a few of the audio issues, but [00:02:00] a few of them are still there. Enjoy , the spirituality of wine.
Bumper: I've never shared this with anybody publicly. There's so many things happening in this conversation right now. A thousand years from now, people are going to be looking at this podcast saying, so this was the breakthrough. If this was SportsCenter, that would be like such a hot take. Skip Bayles would have no idea.
Steve and A. Smith would have no idea what to say if you drop that down. That is so good. The joke I always say is like, how'd you learn so much? You gotta drink a lot. The power of food and beverage to lubricate an environment. That Resistance to change is hurting the church. I'm not in the camp that God has a penis or a vagina or a body at all.
I'm in the camp that God is a universal spirit. This is the strangest podcast that I've done. I don't even know what to do. I'm kind of geeked up about this wine. This is my second glass and it delivers a little more of a punch than I expected. [00:03:00] So if I get a little loopy, it's your fault. Like you told me to drink it on the show.
I will also say as a confession, I am a lightweight. So I've had like three sips of this wine and I'm already feeling it. So. This is fun. You've uncovered the mystery. You've exposed the formula. You've just duct taped together a number of things that aren't normally hanging out together and I'm here for it.
We're gonna sit down at table, we're gonna have a glass of wine and some food, and we're gonna talk about The beauty of Jesus. Thank you for the hospitality that this particular podcast provides folks like myself, and I know others to, to be curious around their faith practices. I really appreciate this menu, what you're doing.
It is fun. And yet you dig into the deep stuff. I've heard about your podcast for a long time and I love. That you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine, that's very unique. I will never forget the first time I bought a bottle of wine by myself, which was yesterday. If you're familiar with drunk history, I [00:04:00] thought it's like drunk theology, so I, oh.
I got a little spicy there. It's the peach wine. By the way, drinking this Pinot Grigio at 3 o'clock in the afternoon is making me even more direct in my communication than I normally would be. I know why you had your guest drink wine. Makes sense now. Yeah, I get it. A little bit of liquid courage should really unleash the beast.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Welcome to the podcast, Gisela.
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: It is so great to be with you, Jeremy. I've heard about your podcast for a long time, and I love that you're a pastor and that you explore the world of faith through wine. That's very unique.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Well,
you are a trendsetter in this industry. Anyone who wants to talk about wine and the Bible and Jesus, there's not a lot of people out there in this space and you are the forerunner and
So whenever I talk about it, people always ask me if I, if I have ever talked with you or, and obviously I've read your books, I've never [00:05:00] talked with you in person.
So today
we're fixing that. We're, we're, making all things right.
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: Oh, I'm so, so glad this is fun. I, you know, there are not that many people out in that world. And for me, it's always such a joy when I meet people who explore that world, because I think it's really important and also very very fun.
So thank you for having me. Well,
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Absolutely. Well,
let's talk about what we're drinking today. I've got a, I've got a pro with me on the other side
of this, So this will be fun.
I am drinking
a 2020 coastline
reserve
Cabernet Sauvignon from Paso Robles.
So this is,
Cabernet
Sauvignon, obviously the most planted grape
around the world, but
this is not as heavy as people may expect when they hear of a California cab.
And this one is actually really nice.
I
always gauge my my cabs as do you have
to have a
piece of meat with it or
can it can it be drank, you know, just on its own. And this one [00:06:00] can be just on
its own It's
doing really good. I'm
getting beautiful fruit notes as well as like
toffee, wet gravel, pipe
tobacco,
but then some blackberry, some black plum.
This is just a very nice, I would say lighter cab
Than, than, what
I often drink, but Very nice for an afternoon conversation
with a
wine theologian. So that's what I'm drinking today. How about you? What do you have in your glass?
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: Well, I actually have a wine from the Beaujolais region. This is a Moulin a Vent from the Dichon family.
It's imported by Kermit Lynch, who means a lot to me. He's endorsed a couple of my books. He's a great wine importer. And I'm not a huge fan of the Gamay grape in general, but this is actually a really, really lovely expression of the Gamay coming from Beaujolais. And it's a lot more Full bodied than the lighter Gamay wines and what I, I first enjoyed this wine when I [00:07:00] was doing an event and I realized that it really moved me and for me, a wine, I don't talk as much about the flavor profile of a wine.
I can, but it, I'm more interested in how it moves me. And how it shapes my
conversations. And so I, I have found this one to be really lovely and it's also affordable wine. It's 25. That's always important to me, you know, have an everyday wine that is affordable and that's beautiful and has some complexity and moves.
Me and us so that's what I thought I should be drinking Something from france that has a rich history in wine crafting and spirituality And something that's crafted very carefully Imported by someone who is very thoughtful about wines and it's affordable. So cheers
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Cheers to
you. I love that now. I want to hear a little bit cause you're saying something that's intriguing. What's the criteria for you when you say wine that moves [00:08:00] you?
Wine. What does
that look
like for you? I'd love to hear a little
bit more of that.
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: Yeah. You know, we live in a, in a time where we approach wine in a very particular way.
And I think quite a secular way and a quite rational way. So a lot of the, the wine guild that has grown over the last 50, years has developed a way of talking about wine that's on the one hand very, very helpful. I think we have, we are able to sort of enjoy wine and discover wine and describe them in ways that we have not done before.
But it's also a very rationalized way of talking about wine. And when I encounter a wine, it's not that I'm not aware of those things, but they're more in the background. I really want to listen to what it does to my body, what I sense and what I smell. And so the overall impression, you know, what emotions it evokes, what memories come back to me.
And so that's a bit different. In Germany, we have a [00:09:00] saying Wine is God's way of kissing humanity. Now, when you kiss someone, you don't usually analyze, you know, everything in detail.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: If it's really bad, maybe you do.
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: do. But you give yourself over to this beautiful exchange and just sort of enjoy it and savor it and see, you know, what it does and how it lifts you.
And I feel that's sort of how I grew up enjoying wine. Though I grew up on a winery and we have an educational side, the general population of Franconia where I grew up, it was, it was a lot more about enjoying wine. And it's not like that you aren't noticing thing. I don't like wines that are flat. I don't like wines that are real loud, that, Just scream at you.
I like wines that have finesse, that have layers complexity whether light or heavy. And I, I notice those things and they, they're part of it, but it, it really is more about how it, [00:10:00] I respond to it and what it does to me and does to my conversations. It's just a less rationalized approach. It's, I think, I'm really trying to listen to more of not just smelling and tasting, but you know, the neuroscientists have shown that, you know, the way we can identify a flavor profile is because of the flavor memories that we have stored up in our brain.
And in these flavor memories, in turn are connected to much more comprehensive and deeper memories that go back to childhood or can go back to childhood. So when you drink a fragrant wine, it can evoke memories and it can evoke emotions. That's just how our, our, our brains work. And so I think a more, more holistic wine savoring will I feel you can give yourself permission to just really listen and see what comes up and how a wine moves you.
And I, I remembering I remember going to Oregon, interviewing one of [00:11:00] the vendors. David Lett, or is it, was it his son that said, you know, my wife and I, and they're, they're one of the pioneers in Pinot Noirs in Oregon, he says, my wife and I, we don't talk about the wine anymore. We just observe what the wine does to our conversation.
So it
doesn't sort of negate, The other side, but it sort of frames it in this more relational way and, you know, how your whole body responds, how the people that you're sharing the wine with respond to the wine. And then what kind of conversations come out of it?
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: I love
that definition.
That's, that's great.
And
it's a much
less
snobby.
Way to
enjoy
wine than a lot of people feel, you know, it gets,
it's a
little
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: snobby.
Well, it's not just a little snobby. It's very snobby. It's very top down It,
It's very rationalized. It makes a lot of people intimidated and that's a huge reality and a huge challenge But I tell you I [00:12:00] feel wine is a gift from god and it's a very personal gift to each of us We each will respond differently to the wine depending on who we are how our body works The memory storehouse that we have, and so it is a real personal gift and me wanting to meet us on that personal level.
And I think sometimes you know, when, when, when the wine experts come along and give you all that information, it's not that it's not helpful, but what I've noticed with a lot of people, then they shut down, they stop listening to what they're experiencing in there, then scrambling to understand what they're supposed to smell and taste and know.
And I, I want to sort of, liberate the laity. That's why I developed the concept of the priesthood of all drinkers. God has given us all the priestly capacity to receive wine and savor and enjoy it, just as God has wanted it.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: That's
amazing. Well done
on
[00:13:00] that. I love, I love
all of that.
Okay.
One of
the questions I
love
starting with our guests, and this gives us
a chance
to get to know you and a little bit
of your journey,
But if
you were
to look at the last 10 years,
of your faith journey.
How would
you say your faith is different
in that time? So
how has
your faith changed in the last 10
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: years?
Oh, I that's a very good question. I actually 11 years ago, lost my job teaching at a seminary. Very suddenly, and I wonder whether the research on wine had something to do with that.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Perhaps.
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: It was on a dry campus.
Anyhow, I had, Yeah, that'll do it.
I had lost my job, you know, 11 years ago and really within 24 hours, it was a very sudden thing very shocked. I was in a tenure track position. I had five or six weeks to scramble and pack my [00:14:00] belongings and move back to Europe. And but within a day of finding out the news, I knew I felt God was saying, I'm opening a door for you, girl, walk through it.
You're going to write the spirituality of wine. And so that's what I did. I moved back to Scotland where I had done my PhD and God opened up all these doors. And I because. There was the short notice, which was very naughty, I thought. They had to pay me until November. You know, I found out on the 25th of April, and they had to pay me until November because of the short notice.
And then in November, I found out that I had a research grant. So, I, over the last 10 years, if anything, I feel like I've stepped more deeply into my vocation and saw God provide. I lived on very little but God provided and gave me beautiful places to live and I always had enough money for a little bit of wine.
And so I really you know, I, [00:15:00] some people thought, well, maybe that's the end of her career. And in many ways it was the beginning, but I had to step out in faith and trust. I had, I had to learn to listen and what God was saying and then sort of live and lean into that vocation. So the last 10 years really have been spent with writing The Spirituality of Wine, The Soul of Wine, Cup Overflowing, created a video series called Wine in the World Word, traveled all over the world, literally, to spread the good news in liquid form.
So looking back on my 10 years, I think I would say highly unusual, not sure I would recommend it, but that was my path. And God is faithful.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: That's beautiful.
What
were you
teaching 11
years
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: ago?
I taught Christian spirituality at a seminary. So I taught an introduction to the spirit Christian spirituality with a hem, heavy emphasis on the spirituality of creation. [00:16:00] I taught a class on the history of the care and cure of souls. I taught on Reformation Spirituality yeah
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: So not
necessarily wine. that was
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: was your big pivot.
No, but while I was teaching at that seminary my boss really wanted me to write another book. I had written a book on George MacDonald. He wanted me to write on the Puritans. And I thought 21st century Puritans not sure if this is what the 21st century really needs.
And I was, as I was approaching publishers, I remember someone from Earth Months was at the seminary and I said, yeah, they said, what, what are you thinking about writing next? And I said, well, maybe a book on the Puritans and they're like any other ideas? And I said, actually, I would love to write a book on the spirituality of wine.
And. The guy was like, really? Here's my card. As soon as you have a proposal, get in touch. And I realized, [00:17:00] oh my goodness, not only was it something that God has put on my heart, the publishing world was ready for it. And I actually had two publishers fighting a little bit over the book. And so yeah, I think if anything else, we live in a time where we need to be aware of that.
So, yeah. of the larger community of creation, that this world that God has made is God's world, and that our responsibility as Christians is to understand that we're just part of a great community of creation, and that we are called to care for it. And the first step in caring for God's good, good world is to love it, to understand it as a gift from God.
So that's what I'm trying to do with all of this. wine and Agriculture and for the last three years. I've been teaching a class on the spirituality of food at a secular University. So I think this is very very important. And this is why I [00:18:00] think what you are doing Jeremy is so important You're bringing your vocation as a pastor and one of the most beautiful gifts that God has given us together really saying we We, we live in a country that has had a very turbulent relationship with alcohol for a very particular reason, and I write about that in my last book, Cup Overflowing, because I want North Americans to understand their history with alcohol is very particular.
There were some very unfortunate circumstances that happened when this country came of age that they couldn't plant vines as the pilgrims had wanted. And so, rum and distilled spirits became a primary beverage of the people. And that had, that created havoc. And we still are in a pattern of drinking too much or not drinking at all.
And so I think we, we really need to move forward. And so what you are doing is you're really drawing attention. This is, this is actually a really important [00:19:00] gift. And so, Engaging the church in a conversation about this is really important for us to move on and develop a better relationship with alcohol by focusing on wine, which has a very different effect on people and conversations in the shaping of cultures.
Then distilled spirit has or beer and I'm, I'm not trying, trying to say beer is bad. It isn't, but I think with distilled spirits, we have to be careful a lot more careful because the impact it can have on us can be very destructive. And I don't think it's, it's as bad with wine, though. Of course, people can abuse wine as well.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Sure, That's, that's
very interesting.
You, you
have a unique background with your
family, you know,
growing up on.
Literally
growing up in
the vines and
so
cool
to
learn about that.
How
would
you say your personal background has influenced
your perspective
on
wine
as a biblical
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: [00:20:00] element? You know, so I grew up on a winery with a long standing family tradition.
It goes back at least to the early 19th century, probably much further back. And then I grew up in the Lutheran church. Our church. became Lutheran in the early 17th century, and so the world of wine, in the world of the Christian faith through the Lutheran Faith traditions have always been buried in my tradition and in my community and in my region and in my country.
And so, for example, one one memory that I have is traditionally, all churches had a harvest Thanksgiving service. Because we used to be all involved in agriculture, and so my mother would go out into the vineyards and select a beautiful branch with lovely grape clusters to then bring to the church to decorate the altar for the harvest Thanksgiving service.
And she would take me along, and I, even as a little girl, realized what we're doing out in the vineyard or in [00:21:00] the winery and what's happening in the church. somehow belongs together. So I had a deep, deep sense of that. And then of course, you know, my, my family wasn't very biblical literate, but whenever there was a baptism or confirmations were big or weddings, we always chose passages from scripture that had to do with wine or the vine.
You know, I am the vine, you are the branches, you know, passages or God gave wine to make glad the hearts of humanity. So these are, you know, the kind of, Confirmation verses or wedding verses that my family chose all the time So we always thought the bible is full of talk about wine, which it really is.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Yeah, I
love that. That's great
I
want to dive
into a few
quotes from your
books that
I, When I read them, I
thought, Oh, those are interesting
thoughts and now I get a chance to talk to you about
in the
[00:22:00] spirituality of wine
you
say this line
in
germany we
have a saying that drink
is to pray
but
you
binge
drink is to sin.
Which sounds
like we need to
be careful of
too
much prayer,
You
know,
that's
clearly the point
you're making
there,
But I love this idea. Can
you elaborate
on this expression?
What is the happy
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: medium between that?
That's good. You know, I hold wine tastings as a spiritual practice. And so with every wine that I'm actually going to Chattanooga to do three events around that, with every wine I introduce a meditation that helps people reimagine wine tastings as a spiritual practice.
And I always start off with, to drink is to pray, to binge drink is to sin, and the line between praying and sinning is often a very fine one. George Herbert has a lovely poem about prayer and talks about prayer as the sinner's tower. Sometimes we hide from God in our piety. [00:23:00] Rather than really allowing God to work and being open and allowing the spirit to move, we use our spirituality and our rituals and our prayers and our fasting or whatever to block God, to hide.
So I think this is sort of the, the, the idea gets it that you know, we, we want to be prayerful, but you know, just because you're praying doesn't necessarily mean that you're really connecting with God. You know, Jesus had that problem with, Some of the Pharisees and the spiritual leadership that they were going through all of these motions, but in the end, they were not really open to what God was doing.
And so when we come to wine, I think it's, it, it, it, it also sort of speaks about this drinking wine receiving wine as a gift from God and enjoying it. savoring it, sharing it, allowing it to shape our and lift our, you know, mundane meals into celebratory meals is a great gift and should be a form of prayer.[00:24:00]
But we can also, like with so many other things, we can also step over a line where we overindulge, where we drink so much that we shut down rather than open up. And so, as with all things, it's about discernment and wisdom. You know, how do we receive, how do we receive this gift well? And so, especially in my last book, Cup Overflowing, that just came out, that's a big concern of the book.
I interviewed quite a lot of Christians who have struggled with alcohol abuse and a recovering addict, a mom of a young family who has parties and they start drinking, you know, hard seltzers and things early in the afternoon. And so, you know, North American Christians are more they feel more in a place.
Yes, we can receive this gift. This is a gift, but they don't have the wisdom yet. And how to receive it well because we've been cut off from enjoying wine for so long with you know, the temperance movement the [00:25:00] prohibition and then Especially in the evangelical tradition so many traditions still don't drink or say you shouldn't drink Well, if you don't drink you also can't develop the wisdom around it.
And that's what I have noticed moving to the U. S. is there's no cultural wisdom yet because it's not just about me as an individual making decisions. You are embedded in a family, you are embedded in a community, and there is or is not wisdom. So that's why I sort of, I wrote a little appendix at the end of Cup Overflowing to sort of help families, church communities, start a conversation.
You know, what, what is or in the study guide, study guide that's that I've written for Wine and the Word, the video series, there are all these questions in there where you learn to examine. What are my habits in relationship to alcohol? What are the habits of my family? Is there someone in my family, extended family, that's abusing it?
And then asking, well, in my wider community, [00:26:00] what are the habits in my wider community? Are they good? Are they healthy? And so to start asking those sorts of questions so you can identify is there any wisdom? Are there any boundaries? Or do we still need to develop that? And I think for many We still need to develop that.
And I can give you a couple of examples just from my context here in Birmingham, Alabama. My husband and I went to a grocery store, quite high end grocery store. We just passed by a neighborhood that we don't usually go to, but we needed a couple of things. So we went there and there was this big sign and it said, you've got the list.
We've got the drink and they have shopping carts that have little holders for either beer or wine and from in the morning You can go in get your beer get your wine Sip that and then do grocery shopping and I'm like that is not very helpful and healthy it encourages drinking early in the day to sort [00:27:00] of Disinhibit you, so you spend a little bit more money.
I'm sure that's the strategy behind it, but culturally that shouldn't be acceptable from my perspective and where I come from. That's not something that I see in Germany. And then I interviewed this one young mother, also lives in a very affluent part of town and She comes from a tea totaling family, but now she, she feels like she, you know, she's learned that wine is a gift from God.
And so they have these children's parties, and in the afternoon they have activities for the children. And then the parents, or whoever can come, they serve them heart seltzer, beer. And whatever early in the afternoon, and I thought, Oh my goodness, that's not a good idea. First of all, it's not a good idea to start drinking in the early afternoon.
You're probably still driving home. It's not a good idea to model to your children to drink that early in the day. Or one more example, I could just go on and on. My husband and I went to a charitable golf tournament. And at nine o'clock in the morning, we all got [00:28:00] ready. And then They had all these coolers with drinks to take onto the golf course because it was going to be a warm day.
And quite a few of the options were things like beer, hard seltzer, early in the morning at nine o'clock. And again, I'm like, Is this wise? Is this culturally something that we should be saying, you know, maybe that's not a good idea to start drinking that early. Maybe they are recovering alcoholics here that are coming along and they're tempted.
So my observation is that there is this sense, especially with the Christian community in general, You know, wine is becoming more accepted. It's, it's not, you know, beer is the most consumed alcoholic beverage, then distilled spirits, and then wine, so they're not, it's, it's still not as spread, as widespread as I think it could be or should be.
But again, we need to think about boundaries. We need to think about where. Should we enjoy wine? And what are the boundaries? For example, I strongly [00:29:00] believe from the biblical view that wine is an invitation to the table, where you sit down together, you share a meal, you wind down from your day, and and that is a really good context.
I don't, in my tradition, we don't drink in my culture before 5 p. m. Usually. Except on a Sunday, maybe, or when there's a special celebration, but usually on a normal day, we don't drink before five, and we usually drink in the context of a meal. Now when I, when I go to events here, and people offer me alcohol before five, I, I say, you know, I don't drink before five and they say, Oh, it's five o'clock somewhere in the world. But can you see that what's behind this? We need thoughtful boundaries. We don't need to set down the law, but we need to say, what is a helpful culture, a helpful rituals, helpful boundaries that help us develop a [00:30:00] healthier, more wholesome and sustainable relationship with alcohol.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Well,
you've you have given this a
lot of
thought.
I, I appreciate that. You have another
quote
from that book that
kind of
on the other
end of this, but
there's another one read it. And
I was like, I would
love to
ask you
about
that.
You
say by
the
time of
Jesus's ministry in 1st century Judaism, the
Passover
celebrations
had
developed and
included the drinking of 4 cups
of
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: wine.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Now that
seems like
a lot of wine
to
be drinking at Passover,
but what
have you found in your
study
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: of that? I, I think we have sources that mention this, but you have to think four cups of wine, I mean we don't know how big those cups of wine were. It was a major celebration. And people gathered in Jerusalem and maybe started, you know, after sundown and then probably late in the night, they were [00:31:00] retelling the story of the Exodus.
reenacting the Exodus, retelling the story and really celebrating. And so when you have a long evening, if you drink four cups of wine with, with food and it's one of the big celebrations, actually That's, you know, when you think about a contemporary celebration, think about the wedding feast of Cana.
I mean, those feasts lasted seven days, so they had seven days to celebrate. That's a little different. But yeah, I don't think it's over the top, and you also have to remember That, at that time, people weren't then hopping in their cars, driving home. They didn't drive. You know, the drinking and driving bit wasn't an issue back then. And so, I think, again, it was, it was in a very defined ritual and celebration of the Passover. And that was, you know, helping them to lean into this, this reality that God had saved them out of slavery, that God was with them. in the [00:32:00] present and that God would be with them in the future, that Elijah would be coming.
And so all of that was being celebrated and cultivated in them. So again, as someone who grew up in a winery and in a culture that really celebrated a lot, for example, Easter or Pentecost or Christmas, Or even on a Sunday, my mom always made a a roast and we had a starter, we had the roast, we had a dessert and, you know, it was sort of a long meal and we, we had more wine and then afterwards we collapsed into bed and had our Sunday afternoon nap and then we went for a strenuous walk into the vineyards.
So I think, you know, if I were to take you with me to my culture and you'd be celebrating with us, I think you would understand it better, you know, that, wow, this is a long evening, you're really celebrating, you're retelling this story, and you linger, you know, and I think this idea of lingering is not as [00:33:00] understood or practiced here.
People do celebrate, but they go home pretty quickly. You know, where I come from, people just linger a lot more and lean into that time of savoring, connecting, conversing. And I think, so that's something that we still need to develop within the culture.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: So
speak to
that.
What would you
say?
that Europeans
understand
about
wine that
Americans don't
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: understand about
wine.
First of all, Americans have not come of age with a wine culture. They were trying to. The pilgrims coming from Europe very much tried to develop a wine culture. But it didn't take on the East Coast, you know, and they arrived on the West Coast later. On the West Coast, they did develop quite a vibrant wine culture, but the Pilgrims came on the East Coast, and so that did, that did not work.
And you know, Thomas Jefferson is actually a really good person [00:34:00] to look to because he was an ambassador in France at the beginning of the French Revolution. And he traveled quite extensively in France and also in Germany and in the winelands. And he thought, oh my gosh, they are in this tumultuous time, and yet people are not abusing wine. They just didn't. And so when Thomas Jefferson came back and when he became the president, he really tried to develop a wine culture. And he tried so hard planting vineyards that it didn't work, but he said he, he did say no nation is drunk where wine you know, replaces strong spirits as the primary drink.
He understood that there was a big difference between distilled spirits and wine. And so countries like Germany, France, Italy, Spain, they have a very, very long wine culture and wine is the primary drink. In Germany, it's. beer and wine. But I think because of that experience and that [00:35:00] integration of wine into the culture of eating around the table and not abusing it or having these norms of you know, we don't drink before a certain time or we don't overindulge or if people do overindulge, they are looked down upon.
I think we've had, like in my region, it was a Benedictine nuns who planted vineyards in our hills in the seventh century. So we've had, you know, a thousand, four, three hundred years to really. understand how it works. And so in the U. S., they are now planting vineyards in every state, and they're still trying to figure it out.
So I think this is why it's so important to have these kinds of conversations. We need to talk about how to develop a healthy and wholesome relationship with wine and to focus more on wine rather than distilled spirits, for example. And so I think Europe has just had, a longer [00:36:00] history of a wine culture that's very deeply embedded in our cultures.
But I also have to say that, of course, distilled spirits have become very popular and they don't do great things. You know, I mean, when you drink a potent cocktail, you have no idea how much alcohol you are imbibing. And then that mixed with sugar just sort of, makes it even more potent and has a, you know, a stronger impact on your body.
So I when I talk to Americans who have traveled to Europe and in places like Italy or Spain, they just get it. It's just so embedded in a culture of being more leisurely, more agrarian, maybe more really life around the table. Now I don't know if you are aware of this, Jeremy, but for the first time in human history, Families don't eat together around the table anymore.
They eat on the go. Or when they come home, people, you know, family members grab something from the fridge and [00:37:00] then go and watch their favorite show or are online. And that is so detrimental for our families and for our social fabric. And obviously we are seeing the consequences of that. Our social fabric has become very brittle.
And so I think that people don't even understand that anymore. Well, why should we waste all that time around the table when, you know, we could get just a quick drive through meal or, you know, get a microwave dinner. And then, you know, I can watch my favorite Netflix show. People have forgotten that at the table is where we learn what it means to be human, what it means to share intimately with one another, where we discuss things.
where we learn what it means to be civil and polite, where we learn how to have an argument where we are nourished in body and in spirit, where we process our days and where we can support one another. Now, once you have, no longer have that [00:38:00] and you spent more and more time online on social media Your soul is not nourished.
And so there is a great poverty of spirit that has emerged and wine is really an invitation to the table to slow down, to get some simple but nourishing food and it just sit and talk, you know, and we come back to the beginning. That's what I look for in a wine. What, what does it do to me in my conversations?
Is it helping me to slow down and listen or is it just overwhelming my senses and I feel like I have this. You know, a lot of alcohol or, you know, just a lot of fruit, or is it sort of, has it nuances, and does it invite me to sort of pay attention to what's happening? And that was a long answer to your question, wasn't it? it?
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: It was very
profound
though, and
I have always
loved
how
drinking
wine,
you, don't
drink it quick. It's
not a,
it's not a
drink that's,
designed to
be
gulped. And [00:39:00] I think it intentionally
causes you to
slow down to savor. and we teach people, you know,
smell it, you know, and,
and,
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: and, and
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: don't
just drink it down, but like,
be present
with what's in the glass. all
of it, you know, reinforce
what you're saying of slowing down and
being around
people and experiencing and
asking someone else,
Hey, what
what do you
think of
this? And how,
how
is it, you know, hitting your palate? And I love all of the conversation around that. So that was a great answer. We'll take it. We'll run with it. Okay. In your book, the soul of wine, you write this up until the 19th century, all Christian traditions served wine in the Lord's supper. And yet in today's Christian culture, there is little witness to this rich interweaving of wine, feasting and redemptive living wine just isn't talked about, I believe this has created a void in our culture and we have given over to the secular world, the task of determining the meaning of [00:40:00] wine for
us. Thank you. That last
sentence is such an interesting
thought
that that
we as Christians
have
said
to the
secular world,
you'd
you'd tell
us about wine rather than us as
the
church unpack that
a little
bit,
Cause I love the
tension between those two different.
kind of
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: kind of driving forces that yeah Now let me emphasize again that a lot of the you know The sommeliers and master of wine and all the educational material that's available Is a rich fountain to draw on.
I don't want to negate that. I just want to say that that's only a part of, for understanding wine. There's a cultural dimension to wine and there's a spiritual dimension to wine that they don't talk about. You know, it's part of this kind of consumer world that we're in, you know, and that's where the hierarchy comes in.
We are the experts. We have mastered wine and we're going to tell you how you can experience it. And it's like, well, no one can master the world of [00:41:00] wine. No one. And the way they talk about is very rationalized. It it does not consider that, you know, and the neurosciences are speaking about that. The way every one of us is experiencing wine and the way we can identify the flavor profile of a wine is because of, Memories of flavor that we've stored up.
And these, as I've mentioned already, are connected to even deeper memories that we house in our body. And also you know, the, it evokes emotions. So, I think that's really, really important to to bring that in as well so that, that it's actually a very personalized experience. to savor wine.
It might evoke quite different things in you than it does in me because of my storehouse of memories and emotions. And and that's great. But perhaps more [00:42:00] importantly for what we are trying to do is in the Bible, wine is a gift from God. to bring us joy. Psalm 104 says God gave wine to make glad the hearts of humanity.
Think about that. It is a blessing from God. Through a well crafted wine, we come to know something about God's love and benevolence and generosity towards us. So as we savor a beautiful wine. We should think about how generous God is and how beautiful he has made the world. That he can bring forth such fragrant and delicious beverages.
But then also, you know, the wedding feast of Cana, where Jesus transforms an abundance of water into wine. Here, we learn that wine says something about the kingdom of God. You know, Joachim Moltmann read my book and wrote [00:43:00] a little note to me saying, when I taste a good wine, I taste the kingdom of God.
They are deeply connected in scripture. It says something about who God is and how he wants to bless us, how he wants to make himself known through the agricultural abundance. And that is something that the secular world cannot teach us. This is something that you are doing, Jeremy. This is something that I'm trying to say.
You know, when Jesus says to his disciples, when he celebrated the Lord's Supper. I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom. He says, at the end of time, when Christ will fulfill his work, he will have a glass of wine with us. So when we drink a glass of wine, it should cultivate and nurture in us hope for the future.
That God has not abandoned this world. But that God will complete the work [00:44:00] and part of that is this wedding feast that we're all invited that has begun in Jesus But that will only find its fulfillment in the future all of these things No one talks about you know, even people serving wine in the Lord's Supper pastors often don't talk about that You know, it's it's not emphasized.
We're not encouraging Christians, as they come to the altar or however you serve the wine, to really attune your taste buds and your olfactory receptor cells to what is served in the cup, and that that speaks about Christ, his sacrifice, and that speaks about a loving God who wants to give us good gifts.
This, we don't talk about, and I think that will also give new meaning to whenever you say, savor a glass of wine in a wine shop. Suddenly, this is no longer such a sort of a leisure thing that you do. It can and should be [00:45:00] a spiritual encounter with the gifts of God, drawing our hearts to God in awe and wonder for how He has made the world and how generous He wants to be towards us.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: I love that.
Are there any
particular
biblical passages
that you have found
that you
think
are often
misunderstood or
overlooked when it comes
to Christians
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: Christians understanding this?
I think one of the passages that I think people really struggle with is, you know, really the first mention of vineyards and wine when Noah planted a vineyard in Genesis 9.
You know, Noah is this man of faith and, you know, then he gets off the ark, makes a covenant with God, gets this blessing from God, and then he plants a vineyard and gets drunk. And people say, well, that man has fallen from grace and has lost his faith. And I want to say, no he hasn't, actually planting a vineyard was an act of faith in God's future.
He could have [00:46:00] planted a fast yielding crop like grain, but he planted vines in the vineyard for him to have a significant harvest would have taken four to five years. It was an act of faith that God had a future for him, that he would make them into a civilization. Now, when you are a new Bintaner and you have your first vintage.
It's understandable that you might imbibe a little bit too much and get drunk. Makes complete sense to me. The interesting thing is that Noah is not judged for getting drunk. Who's getting judged his son and grandson for you know, obviously that was an embarrassment. You know, you don't wanna get drunk. But to intensify someone's shame by spreading the news that he was naked in the tent, that's, that got severely punished.
And so I think that's a passage in, you know, I write more about that both in the book, Cup [00:47:00] Overflowing, and then in the video series that coming is coming up because so many people stumble over that. But think about that. The book of Proverbs, by that time, the Hebrews had developed quite a some wisdom around enjoying wine and what the boundaries are and warning the young people don't get drunk on wine.
And there's a whole description of someone who got wine in the hangover. But how does the book of Proverbs end? The the shrewd wife, the industrious and shrewd wife, plants. a vineyard. That's how Proverbs ends. She invests in God's future and in the future of her family and children, because in the, in the Judeo Christian world, vineyards and, and, and vines and wine are gifts from God that enrich our lives, that help us to commune with God, that help deepen our celebration into something more joyful and [00:48:00] celebratory.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: In the
book you
also
write.
and this
is
a bit of a
hot
take,
perhaps
bringing pleasure and joy
was
just as
important or perhaps
even more
important to
Jesus's
ministry
as
feeding the poor
or
healing the
sick.
what do you
mean by
the
bringing
pleasure and
joy being
that
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: that important? How
do you see that?
I think a primary way that the Hebrews cultivated their faith is through feasts and celebrations. The lives of ordinary believers was very hard. They were they were involved in agriculture and to make a living of it was very, very challenging. They didn't have a lot of distractions.
They couldn't go to the movie theater or a bar and have a drink. But the family celebrations, the religious festivals, who are really, really important for them to lean into their faith, to [00:49:00] celebrate that God was with them, that He had saved them, that He was providing for them. And so, and, and, and wine brought more of that joy into it.
And that was very, very important. And I think, We cannot understand that, but we don't do that anymore. For us, we have all these spiritual practices and spiritual exercises, but how often do we really gather to celebrate and to lean into our faith through these celebrations? Instead, that was the world that Jesus and his disciples inhabited.
And I think it is striking that Jesus first miracle wasn't healing a sick person, Or feeding the poor. He did that. But the first thing he did He said, let's celebrate for the Messiah is here. That's what this miracle is about. Apart from on the, on the, on the most fundamental level, I think this miracle is about Jesus for seven days, entering into the celebrations [00:50:00] of ordinary people and joining in and celebrating that.
And through that miracle, he's prolonging and deepening their sense of joy and celebration. We need to think about that. It's easy to pass those things by because we don't think that's very spiritual, is it? But it is. And we have to come to terms with that this what is what Jesus did when he started his ministry.
And then of course, you know, the prophets had talked about God sending a Messiah, an anointed one who would deliver his people, who would overthrow the oppressor. And a sure sign of what of that was. Celebration, feasting, wine flowing in abundance down the hills, and so when Jesus steps onto the scene and then transforms water into wine at the wedding feast of Cana, he really says, you know, what the prophet spoke about is now being fulfilled.
In me, [00:51:00] God has started a new age. The eschatological wedding feast has begun. Let's rejoice because God is near and he's about to bring redemption.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: I love
how
you
are bringing this
aspect of
Jesus's
ministry to
light, which is,
as
we've talked
about,
so
easy to
overlook, so
easy to
kind
of
move
past and you're
celebrating
it and, very cool.
Okay, so we're going to switch
gears a
little bit, and we're going to
ask you some questions
that we ask each
guest,
and then
we get to compare your answers to other guests.
And
I'm really
excited for your
first answer
because
we get a lot of
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: of
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: random
answers to this one. Yours is going to be good
if I were to say to
you When
you
think
about
like the just the perfect glass of wine
and
it
could
be because of what's in it
could be
because of
how it
moves
you.
Who
you're
with the setting, the
conversation.
If
you go back, I go, Hey, what
do
you,
what
comes to
[00:52:00] mind? Is there a memory and you probably have
lots of them, but is
there a memory that you go, you know what I
think about this time
and
could
you describe
what
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: made it that special for you?
I think.
One of the memories that comes to mind is drinking a Pinot Noir from Burgundy, a really lovely Pinot Noir, that to me was ethereal. You know, I don't like wines that are too overpowering. I like wines that are beautiful and fragrant and intricate, but there was something to that wine that I call ethereal.
It was so beautiful it, it, awakened something in me that I thought, Oh my goodness, how can this be? How can so much beauty be in a glass of wine? And where does this come from? You know, and I, I have this theory and I don't know if it's a theory, but you know, culture shapes how Wine is made so when you drink German wines and when you go to Franconia or other parts of [00:53:00] Germany German wines are very direct.
You know, they're quite clear what they're about, you know And Germany is the country of the Enlightenment. We are very enlightened. We're good thinkers. We're very clear You know my German culture. I always tell people, you know, I'm gonna be direct with you This is who I am. This is how I feel. I'm going to say it very straightforward All right Now, in France, and especially in Burgundy, Burgundian wines are a lot more, to me, mysterious.
They are not so clear. There is a lot more ethereal it's hard to put that into words, but think about France as a major place of Christian mysticism. Bernard of Clairvaux, wrote all these mystical writings on the Song of Songs. He's from the wine region in Burgundy, from Clairvaux, and I was part of the Cistercian movement that planted all of these vineyards and [00:54:00] crafted wine to the glory of God.
And so I I, though I have a strong German part, I also have a very strong mystical part that I think we've lost. We used to have a very rich mystical tradition in Germany, but with the, you know, the Reformation and the Enlightenment, we, we have become a lot more clear minded and mysticism is, you know, is, is still much more prevalent, I feel, in France.
So, that's, you know, something that I notice. And I, having this affinity towards mysticism, my middle name is Hildegard. And there's this great German mystic called Hildegard von Bingen, who also crafted wine and wrote about wine and yeah, I, I, I am gravitating towards these kinds of wine. They are more ethereal.
They are. They are wooing you in. They're not screaming at you. They [00:55:00] are saying, come on in. There's beauty. There's complexity. There are things that you will discover that you don't yet know. Just stay and linger and see or taste.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: It's very
European,
because most
American
wines
are,
Bam! Here's
some
fruit.
going to hit you
with
it.
Americans
like it
like
that. So I
love
the, I
love getting European, old world wines and, you
know, you get a
lot more of the
earth and
minerality and like, Oh,
there's a
lot,
there's a lot here
to kind of unpack.
And that
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: that sounds like
your
experience. And beautiful full body Cabernets are wonderful wines.
They can be just as invitational and you know, I just actually ordered some Pinot Noir from Oregon and some Chardonnay from Oregon and they make some beautiful
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Oregon is my
first love
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: of
wine. I
love
Oregon
wines.
Yeah, so I as I said, [00:56:00] I I don't think you need to get you know, I don't think you need to go to Burgundy, I think there are many wine regions and there, the wine world in the U.
S. is changing all the time. Yes, you have wine regions where the wines are quite loud or very alcoholic, but then you also have really, really beautiful and well crafted Cabernet Sauvignons from Napa Valley. And it depends on where you go and really, The winemaker and his philosophy and what he wants to do.
And so that's, you're really on a search on a, it's, it's not just about a kind of wine, but a kind of way of doing agriculture and working with what the land brings forth and what God gives you and how to shepherd that along. .
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: What is
something you
used to
believe,
that it
turned out
later
you were
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: were wrong about,
in, in terms of wine,
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: It could
be
anything.
It Could be faith,
It could be
life.
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: It happens to me in [00:57:00] my relationships a lot where I think a person, a certain person thinks a certain thing or feels a certain thing. And when I actually try and talk about it, I realized, Oh, they're coming from somewhere completely different. And so I, I, I feel like that happens to me quite a lot in, in judging situations that I really can't assume or judge.
where a person's coming from that I always need to sort of check in and how many misunderstandings I have had because I was wrong about where people came from.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: What do
you
see as
the
main
issues
facing
Christianity
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: in America today?
Oh, that's a big question. I want Americans to trust that God builds his kingdom in the church. I think there is this confusion about You know, that politics can do something or bring something [00:58:00] back that belongs to the church.
That I think the way Jesus brought it in is by gathering a group of people and teaching them his ways. And by baptizing them, by offering the Lord's Supper, by making them disciples, and in these small communities loving one another well. And I think I want the church in North America to rediscover the local church, interconnected with one another, as the primary place where we live out our faith.
And obviously we have a government, you know, we live in a democracy. We have certain things that we get to do in privileges and rights and duties, and they're very important. But the primary way where we live out our faith is within the church. And then from there we are called to peace, salt and light in, in the world, in our vocations, you know, people, I'm speaking to a group of people that [00:59:00] work in the food world in Chattanooga.
So we'll be discussing about what does it mean to live out your Christian faith in the food industry. And I think this is a real crisis. I think there are a lot of people that feel like we We, we can get the government to do certain things, and that will bring back the kind of faith that is faithful to Jesus and the Gospels.
And I don't, that's not what Jesus teaches. Jesus teaches to be God's people. Like, I am the vine, you are the branches, is one of the most beautiful images about what it means to be the body. We are grafted into Christ. Before we are Americans, We Christians were grafted into Christ and there's only one Christ and all of us no matter what denomination we are from We're grafted into this one vine, which is Christ And then we are called to love one another to serve one another and wash each other's feet.
So that's This is [01:00:00] what we are called to as Christians. We're called to wash each other's feet and especially of those who are different from us. So I feel like my calling being you know, living in America being Meritan American, I'm going to get American citizenship, I hope. And my role I feel like is to build bridges, to gather people around the table and to help us read scripture well, to be faithful to Christ and how he's taught us to live.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Well said. Well
said.
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: said.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: What is something that's
blowing
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: blowing your mind right now?
In a positive or a negative way? Let's
go positive.
Okay. I am so moved by all the grassroots movements in this country and all the good things that are happening here. Like I'm, I'm about to go to Chattanooga, which is not Known to be a culinary place, but there are these young Christians that are gathering and they're moving into the food and [01:01:00] wine world, into regenerative agriculture, a young, you know, the son of a pastor has opened a wine shop, and to make that into a gathering place, and that's a wonderful ministry to gather and to, to speak into culture from these more secular places.
Or you know, we have quite a food crisis and a lot of food deserts in this country. And so there are all these wonderful movements, like here in town, Jones Valley Urban Farms. It's an urban farm where they go into poor school systems, and they teach the children from early on how to garden, how to harvest vegetables.
vegetables, how to cook, they teach them about nutrition. So, I love all these grassroots initiatives that are really meeting a great need and I find that just so encouraging.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: What
is a
problem that you're
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: that you're trying to
solve? That's a good question. [01:02:00] Personally, I am because I do all of these different things, I'm a writer, like right now we're getting ready to publish a video series called Wine in the Word, and we're, you know, we're having all of these events, and then I'm leading these wine pilgrimages, so I'm doing a lot of admin work, I'm at the computer, and I'm not reading.
and writing and probably the reading part is a problem. I'm not reading enough right now and that is a problem for me because I think to be well read, to be well educated, to continue to read and grow is part of who I am, not just as a Christian, as a writer, but also a good citizen. And so that's a problem that I'm trying to look at and say, okay, how can I readjust my life so that I can read and be nourished and then share what I've learned.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Yeah, You got
a
lot going on.
at the moment. What
is
something you're
excited about right now? You
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: You just mentioned a
few. I [01:03:00] think what I'm really excited about is we are just about to release and I'm going to show this to you. This is the study guide to a video series. that we have filmed together with a very seasoned pastor in Napa called Wine in the Word.
And I think it's going to be a very thoughtful, but also very accessible introduction to wine in the Bible. And I'm really excited about starting a nationwide conversation about wine. Wine is a gift from God. We've had a very troubled history with alcohol in this country, but let's talk about it and let's heal together.
Let's reclaim wine and develop a healthy and wholesome relationship with wine, which brings you to the table and I'm sharing meals and feasting and celebrating. I think that can be a really important powerful way to shake culture to renew culture, but especially the Christian community.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Love it.
Was
there
anything
else
you want to
add [01:04:00]
that
I
have not
asked you
about, but
we
could
not close the interview
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: without talking
about, yes. Um, one of the things that I feel like I want to bring some awareness to is that intoxication is not always negative. I have a meditation that is entitled the gift.
of holy tipsiness, the gift of blessed intoxication. That's that kind of level of intoxication where you don't either shut down or get out of control, but you are just a little intoxicated and you let down your guards. You start to relax. You allow confessions to come more easily. Confessions of joy and pleasures and confessions of failures and grief.
And through that you become more vulnerable to the people that you are with. And deeper bonds can happen. And I've seen that over and over in our wine [01:05:00] tasting room. And so I want to leave you with this idea. There is this gift of Holy Tipsiness that is a strength in social bonds that really is what makes celebration so beautiful with wine is that you have a level of conviviality and joy and openness and vulnerability that comes because you're just slightly intoxicated.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: going to
make a
great
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: social
media
clip. I
like it.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Well,
If
someone is
listening to
this or
watching this and
they're like,
I
am really
resonating with
her,
where can they find you
online?
How can they
get
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: they get more
connected to
the things that you're
working on?
Yeah, great question. I have a website, the spirituality of wine, or if you Google my name, Gisela Krieglinger, that will lead you to my website where you can see my publications and my wine pilgrimage that I do once a year.
There's a way that you can get in contact with me. I think that's the easiest way.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: [01:06:00] Well,
this has
been an absolute joy to
finally get a
chance to sit down
and talk
with You
You are
a
trailblazer
and in this conversation
and have so
significantly impacted
so many conversations and
so many people.
and.
Certainly
when
I first had
the
idea of
getting
into
wine and Jesus,
your
books
were the ones that
I started with
and
I
started
pouring into. So you've
impacted me in
huge ways. I
know
you've
impacted a ton of
people and it's.
so
amazing
this just
to hear
how
that influence is
continuing to
spread.
So
thanks for all of
that and thank you for
taking the
time to
squadcaster-b1h7_2_02-13-2025_141050: to sit down with us today.
Absolute delight, Jeremy. Thank you for having me really, really enjoyed being in conversation.
jeremy_3_02-13-2025_131050: Well, everybody, hopefully you
love
this
conversation as
much
as I did.
Obviously, a
lot to
unpack here, a
lot to
process. Go check out
her books and her
video
series,
You will learn a
ton and
we'll see you on the next
episode
of
[01:07:00] Cabernet and Pray
